"it Depends On What The Definition Of 'is' Is"

[Rabbers]

Having attentively followed this thread, I am lost in admiration for the ability of some contributors to think ahead

and project themselves into future technical, economic and financial situations of which it is good to be aware if

they are going to change cars within the next few months but may otherwise prove to be academic in an evolving

marketplace.

I remember that maybe a month or less before deciding to buy a 300h I would not have imagined myself owning

a hybrid. I wonder, therefore, what kind of car I will imagine myself not buying before next deciding to change.

For sure, this is not going to happen anytime soon given my undiminished technical and economic satisfaction

with the 300h in any comparison with any other cars I presently see on the road that might suit my pocket and

taste.

[tinka]

Other than our 300h's, I think the best alternative (at present) is the Vauxhall Ampera, where the engine is used mainly to charge the motor, much like the diesel/electric principle on trains. Now I don't know much about them, but a claimed 300mpg is mentioned?, and it's a perfect compromise.

[Bratman91]

Rabbers, it sounds as though you are advocating impulse buying.

[ganzoom]

@DJP I'm sure your be fine with the range on the Tesla. I've done Leicester to Cardiff and back this weekend in the Leaf with no issues. Got another trip down to London in a few weeks, and I'll be taking the Leaf. At this rate we are going to struggle to break 5K per year in IS300H :)

[Rabbers]

Rabbers, it sounds as though you are advocating impulse buying.

No, not at all. A car is not the sort of item I would ever buy on impulse, which is not to say

that quick and uncomplicated purchase decisions are necessarily undiscriminating ones.

Because my IS250 had started to lose its bloom, I armed myself with as much information

about hybrids as my brain could easily absorb or would hopefully ever need to absorb and

then took a 300h for a test drive. I was so mightily impressed by its performance that, having established that I could afford it, I proceeded to buy one out of the showroom after a quick

and satisfactory negotiation. As in the case of the four IS's that preceded it and apart from

some minor niggles, I have had no cause to regret my decision. I can well imagine this same

scenario being repeated when the 300h itself starts to bore me, but, until then, I won't worry

too much about whether its replacement will be an improved hybrid or a plug-in or whatever

else may be on offer at the time. I do sincerely hope, however, that it will be a Lexus.

[ganzoom]

, until then, I won't worry too much about whether its replacement will be an improved hybrid or a plug-in or whatever else may be on offer at the time.

My problem is I don't have large enough monthly disposable income to just decide on buying a new car without any kind of forward planning. We also don't like buying on finance/debut which means cash buys upfront. On a £5K car thats not an issue but on something that cost £50K+.....just a small amount of forward planning is needed ;)

I was actually saving up for a used £40Kish XJ-SuperSport to replace my BMW 335i when my wife got her IS300H. But the EV experience offered by the IS totally changed my plans - which is the complete opposite of OPs experience :)

A £50K+ car is also something that I would have to keep for 5 years +, and given the rate at which EV technology is developing, its in my interest to ensure I known what my money is going to buy me, and what's coming down the line.

The Leaf deal I got is so cheap its almost pocket money £200/month with no deposit, and 2 year term, it also released the money I got from selling my 335i. I actually signed on the dotted line with not that much research and didn't even bother to try and push/negotiate the deal, the finances meant the deal was just too good for me to ignore. My justification was its so cheap if I don't like it I'm not losing out on anything.....But lucky for me, I love it :)

My in-laws are about to do the same, swapping their Mini Cooper for a Renault Zoe. £500 deposit, £160/month, 24 months contract...add in 2p/mile fuel costs, £0 road tax, free home EV charger. For a brand new car that comes with Bluetooth music streaming/DAB/reversing camera + sensors/sat nav etc, if your car usage fits the 70-100 mile range, its an unbelievable deal!!

[Gary T]

Doesn't that Zoe price exclude Battery lease? That appears to be £45 a month for up to 3000 miles p.a. or £70+ if you do greater mileage.

[Rabbers]

My problem is I don't have large enough monthly disposable income to just decide on buying a new car without any kind of forward planning. .....We also don't like buying on finance/debut which means cash buys upfront...

Gang: I don't disagree with anything you say in your post. It seems to me that car buyers divide into two main

groups: those who are constantly thinking about the next car they are going to buy and those who do so hardly

or not at all until the need occurs. The first consists largely of car enthusiasts and the second includes people

such as myself whose definition of what constitutes a nice car is more superficial and perhaps less demanding

- and who, of course, gratefully exploit such knowledge as is comprehensibly made available to them by the

first while reserving the right to reject it. The people making up both groups are subject to financial constraints

which they overcome on the basis of what they can individually afford, and surely all of us keep ball-park figures

more or less firmly in mind about what we are willing to spend on a car whether as the result of a long-term plan

or a short-term decision.

[Gary T]

Going back to the OP, personly I don't think any advantages the IS250 has over the 300h are worth the extra running costs.

I've had an IS200, IS220D, IS250 (Gen 2) and the 300h so have a bit of experience. They all have different characters and advantages/disadvantages but I'm not surprised the 250 is now discontinued. The emmisions are just too great for the performance these days, way behind anything similar. It doesn't feel that powerful either, both the BMW and Ford 2.5 litre sixes I've run in the past had far more low end torque.

Going from the 250 to 300h my fuel costs have halved and even though I only do 8500 miles a year I save about £70 a month on average, plus the road tax saving, in a car that is far more refined than the equivalent 2 litre diesel.

When the PCP is up we'll probably buy it as the other half's Toyota diesel will be 11 years old by then, what I will get I haven't a clue as the market is changing rapidly. A plug in hybrid would probably suit me but the ones currently available don't appeal.

I think Lexus may have been better off selling the IS350 here in place of the 250, simliarly to BMW selling the 335 as their smallest six nowadays but the numbers shifted would still be small.

[Spacewagon52]

Some here may have already read this:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33005362

[rayaans]

Some here may have already read this:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33005362

Good points mentioned in the article especially the range anxiety - even Tesla overestimate their figures! Can't do more than 200 miles in one.

[ganzoom]

Doesn't that Zoe price exclude battery lease? That appears to be £45 a month for up to 3000 miles p.a. or £70+ if you do greater mileage.

The price they were quoted include the Battery rental, excluding the Battery the car is only £75/months!!

Good points mentioned in the article especially the range anxiety - even Tesla overestimate their figures! Can't do more than 200 miles in one.

You need to check your facts!!

The American EPA range rating for EVs are really accurate. My Leaf is has an EPA rating of 75 miles which is actually an underestimate - I get 80-85 miles.

A 70kWh Model S has a EPA rating of 240 miles, a 85kWh 85D 270 miles. If you really hyper mile one, it'll do 500 miles+ on a charge.

http://gas2.org/2015/09/17/550-miles-single-charge-tesla-model-s-85d/

[rayaans]

Doesn't that Zoe price exclude battery lease? That appears to be £45 a month for up to 3000 miles p.a. or £70+ if you do greater mileage.

The price they were quoted include the Battery rental, excluding the Battery the car is only £75/months!!

Good points mentioned in the article especially the range anxiety - even Tesla overestimate their figures! Can't do more than 200 miles in one.

You need to check your facts!!

The American EPA range rating for EVs are really accurate. My Leaf is has an EPA rating of 75 miles which is actually an underestimate - I get 80-85 miles.

A 70kWh Model S has a EPA rating of 240 miles, a 85kWh 85D 270 miles. If you really hyper mile one, it'll do 500 miles+ on a charge.

http://gas2.org/2015/09/17/550-miles-single-charge-tesla-model-s-85d/

The 85kwh one has nowhere near 300 mile range. Tesla firstly recommends 80% charging so thats 240 miles. If you drive it normally it gets about 200!

[Gary T]

Doesn't that Zoe price exclude battery lease? That appears to be £45 a month for up to 3000 miles p.a. or £70+ if you do greater mileage.

The price they were quoted include the Battery rental, excluding the Battery the car is only £75/months!!

That's giving them away. They must have serious trouble shifting them.

I just had a look on Autotrader, there are 80 used ones on there starting at just over £6k for a 2013 with 3500miles.

I can't remember seeing a Zoe on the road, Leafs seem to be more common.

[Spacewagon52]

Is this a case of HOW you drive the car? I got 38 mpg out of an old 2 litre petrol People Carrier - but I drove it on a motorway at 55 mph for an extended period - never again! Very boring and quite frankly dangerous.. Never had anything near that in "normal" driving.

If you are feather footed on the throttle and don't brake heavily I would think you range would improve on a hot day in the summer.

But what is their "normal" range in everyday driving?

[ganzoom]

That's giving them away. They must have serious trouble shifting them.

I just had a look on Autotrader, there are 80 used ones on there starting at just over £6k for a 2013 with 3500miles.

I can't remember seeing a Zoe on the road, Leafs seem to be more common.

The deal is run by RCI finance, the same company that my Nissan finance is done through....Essentially Nissan/Renault are putting a £5K deposit contribution (Total is £10K off the list price including the EV grant) + every low interest rate, so yes they are basically giving them away - So why wouldn't you take advantage of these deals if cars suit your usage :)

[ganzoom]

Is this a case of HOW you drive the car? I got 38 mpg out of an old 2 litre petrol People Carrier - but I drove it on a motorway at 55 mph for an extended period - never again! Very boring and quite frankly dangerous.. Never had anything near that in "normal" driving.

If you are feather footed on the throttle and don't brake heavily I would think you range would improve on a hot day in the summer.

But what is their "normal" range in everyday driving?

All I can say is the American EPA rating for my Leaf is 75 miles, and I get 80-85 miles in normal use.

For a 85kWh Tesla, the EPA rating is 270 miles.

[rayaans]

Is this a case of HOW you drive the car? I got 38 mpg out of an old 2 litre petrol People Carrier - but I drove it on a motorway at 55 mph for an extended period - never again! Very boring and quite frankly dangerous.. Never had anything near that in "normal" driving.

If you are feather footed on the throttle and don't brake heavily I would think you range would improve on a hot day in the summer.

But what is their "normal" range in everyday driving?

All I can say is the American EPA rating for my Leaf is 75 miles, and I get 80-85 miles in normal use.

For a 85kWh Tesla, the EPA rating is 270 miles.

Except Tesla recommend 80% charge and the car logs how much charge you've been going to and they won't honour the warranty if you have only 200 miles range on 100% after 3 years.

At 80% you could get 240 but you wouldn't because the instant torque is too addictive. With conventional cars they won't drop under a certain mpg, for example if I welly the RX around I'll be getting 25 mpg and it won't get lower so I can still do 350 miles on a tank and fill up in 2 mins. If I welly the Tesla, like I did, I get 150-200 miles on 80%

[ganzoom]

^^ The point about charging is that you can do it at home. You will only need to charge it to 100% for long trips. So unless your doing 250 miles every single day, you simply don't need to charge it to 100%. Even with my Leaf and its 80-85 mile range I only charge it every 3 days.

I've had my Leaf for 6 months, coming up to 4000 miles covered - Which is more than what our IS300H has done. This weekend gone I used it for a 340 mile round trip, in the rain, heater on, carrying 2 passengers with no issues. I honestly have no problems with charging in my Leaf if it had another 100 miles of range i wouldn't even need to use rapid chargers unless it was a dire emergency.

I get the feeling you want to wait for hydrogen fuel cell cars, but the simple faces are hydrogen fuel cell technology is still as much of a pipe dream as it was 10 years ago. The Mirai is a hand build concept car Toyota is using to try and work out what how to justify the technology. You cannot even buy one unless Toyota deems you 'suitable', and that not going to change for quite a few years yet....The last I checked there was also less than 5 public hydrogen fuel stations in the UK - So good luck refuelling you Mirai ;)

Whilst I was out in the Leaf this weekend, and charging the car at Hopwood services. In total I saw another 4 Leafs come and go whilst I was there for 20 minutes, all with 15 plates. These cars are slowly but surely getting more 'normal'. People still come up to me to ask questions about the car, and I've yet to meet anyone who hasn't been impressed by the fact you can now buy/own a usable electric car for £200/month with no deposit.

You can either wait for the imaginary future Toyota is trying to sell with the Miria - or you can actually start been part of the future right now :)

[rayaans]

The problem is that when you have unexpected trips, which is quite often for me, its very difficult. Imagine having 50 miles left and then you realise you have 100 miles to go!

I doubt Toyota, being the biggest carmaker in the world will have just chosen hydrogen out of thin air

[wh05apk]

How is that different to petrol?

Appreciate that currently there aren't so many electric points available, but in time that will increase, electricity is easier to distribute than petrol etc, electric cars can be charged anywhere there is a power supply, admittedly slowly at the moment, but in time more and more fast chargers will appear, as compared to petrol, the charging facilities are far cheaper to install, also the need for them will probably diminish as cars become capable of longer ranges.

[rayaans]

How is that different to petrol?

Appreciate that currently there aren't so many electric points available, but in time that will increase, electricity is easier to distribute than petrol etc, electric cars can be charged anywhere there is a power supply, admittedly slowly at the moment, but in time more and more fast chargers will appear, as compared to petrol, the charging facilities are far cheaper to install, also the need for them will probably diminish as cars become capable of longer ranges.

The difference is that I can just go into a Petrol station and fill up in 2 minutes and be off without even going inside some of them due to automated credit card ones now.

There are only 2 electric chargers near Leeds, both 7 miles away. Im not going to go 7 miles away to charge a car.

Id imagine there will never be a day of "enough" chargers. They'll always be in use, especially if electric cars keep increasing.

[ganzoom]

The problem is that when you have unexpected trips, which is quite often for me, its very difficult. Imagine having 50 miles left and then you realise you have 100 miles to go!]

If your car use demands you need to have a minimal 100 miles of range at all times, than even hydrogen fuel cells cars aren't going to meet your needs for a long long time yet, given the total lack of any hydrogen refuel infrastructure.

But for ALOT of people an EV with a 200 mile real life range will meet their needs quite easily.

If your just after a 'quicker' charge, Battery swap stations are already live in California, the stations cost $500,000 - about the same as a hydrogen refuel station. But Tesla owners aren't using them!!...Simply because when given the choice between waiting 20 minutes for a free recharge or paying $80 for a <5 minute Battery swap, virtually all are choosing to wait 20 minutes and not pay $80 :)

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/car-technology/news/a25872/elon-musk-tesla-battery-swap/

When I was charging up at Hopwood this weekend there was a bay of 6 empty Tesla Superchargers next to the normal rapid chargers. The boss of Welcome break has bought a Tesla for personal use and the rumours are they are planning to try and put Tesla Supercharges in every Welcome break service station. Given the high price of entry, its very unlikely Tesla Supercharges will be swapped for a good few years yet....I cannot wait to swap my Leaf for a Model S...Damn the Nissan lawyers for writing such a financially tight contract with no get-out clause.

I have no idea why Toyota is obsessed with hydrogen fuel cell technology. A hydrogen fuel cell car is still an EV, so from my point of view, why waste time waiting for hydrogen fuel cell cars when usable Battery technology is already here....and getting cheaper/better every 6-12 month.

[DJP]

How is that different to petrol?

Appreciate that currently there aren't so many electric points available, but in time that will increase, electricity is easier to distribute than petrol etc, electric cars can be charged anywhere there is a power supply, admittedly slowly at the moment, but in time more and more fast chargers will appear, as compared to petrol, the charging facilities are far cheaper to install, also the need for them will probably diminish as cars become capable of longer ranges.

The difference is that I can just go into a Petrol station and fill up in 2 minutes and be off without even going inside some of them due to automated credit card ones now.

There are only 2 electric chargers near Leeds, both 7 miles away. Im not going to go 7 miles away to charge a car.

Id imagine there will never be a day of "enough" chargers. They'll always be in use, especially if electric cars keep increasing.

With a charger at home, 140 mile range is achieved whilst I'm asleep - at economy 7 rates too. Don't even need the petrol station, or to seek out a public charger unless I'm on a long journey and then, yes, a little more thought is required than at the moment. It's certainly not for everyone, but for a great many people I think it's step change in how/what we drive. In all the reviews I've read over the last few months while I've been researching this, and there have been a great may, I don't think I've read one where the owner wished they hadn't made the change to EV.

[rayaans]

What happens if the charger is offline? Ive heard of that a lot recently.

Toyota is obsessed with Hydrogen due to range - 300 miles from one of the first hydrogen vehicles is fairly promising. Itll be 400, 500 maybe 1000 by the time EV gets anywhere near that.