"it Depends On What The Definition Of 'is' Is"

[Bratman91]

It's Friday so I thought that I would initiate some controversy to start the weekend off. I bought a new IS250 a couple of months after this model was introduced, and traded this in for another new IS250 about 4 years later. Car No2 was written off after a dispute about the correct side of the road to drive with a BMW 2 years ago. I had the opportunity to replace this with what was then the newly-introduced IS300 but, after a short test drive, did not like it and bought another IS250.

My IS250 has just been in for servicing and I was given an IS300 as a loaner. This has confirmed my view that the IS250 is a far superior car. Its 6-cylinder engine is smoother and quieter than the 4-cylinder one on the IS300, it has a bigger boot and provides a far more refined drive. I particularly disliked the intrusive whine of the electrical drive system of the IS300 when slowing down and the way in which the petrol engine starts up when, for example, reversing slowly out of a parking space. This latter feature feels as if something has been struck and gives one quite a start (no pun intended). I cannot dispute the greater fuel economy of the IS300 but if, like me, you do not put in a high mileage, this is not a huge advantage and, I suspect, may well be offset by higher servicing and repair costs, particularly in the car's later years.

So my fellow LOC members, what is your verdict on an IS250/IS300 comparison?

[Spacewagon52]

My "gut" feeling would be to go with the IS250. Less complicated, less to go wrong. I like the idea of hybrids but baulk at the potential repair / replacement parts costs. I am not in a financial position to even contemplate a nearly new car, so reliability is more of a concern than just mpg economy. I would choose the IS250 over the 220d for similar reasons.

[noby76]

had a similar view aswell.. see below link

http://www.lexusownersclub.co.uk/forum/topic/100933-my-quick-is300h-review/#entry916122

[rayaans]

I had similiar views to you before my wife got the IS300h and I drove it back on the motorway from Chester.

First of all, I think the IS250 is a smooth engine and refined with the 6 speed gearbox, however, there isn't much between the IS250 and IS300h in terms of smoothness. In fact, it is easily arguable that the IS300h is smoother due to the CVT which doesn't shift at all - the IS250 6 speed can get hesitant when asking too much of it. I would also say that refinement of the IS250 is less than the IS300h and that is simply down to the electric drivetrain - completely silent when driving along at low speeds in town unless you brake, but even then, its not obtrusive and it almost sounds like you're going to the future.

In terms of repairs, the IS250 actually costs MORE to service due to extra cylinders and some other stuff. Lexus Bradford quoted me £990 for 3 IS250 services and £750 for 3 IS300h services (both were 20,30 and 40k services). Essentially its £240 over 3 years which isn't much but even if you drive 5k miles a year at the claimed MPG figures, it would make a £200 difference in petrol costs and a further £215 cost in tax annually. Therefore over 3 years you lose £1485 and 5k miles a year is very low!

Not to mention, the IS300h holds value much better for a few reasons. Firstly, its being replaced by the IS200t and when a new model comes out, a car will always lose value as its no longer desirable. Furthermore, the running costs puts it out of reach for people who drive even 10k miles a year and as a rule, its not as desirable as the IS300h in the current times. I wouldn't worry about reliability, Lexus hybrids are insanely reliable, may even be more so than the IS250 which has carbon build up problems.

One odd thing I found was that insurance price is more expensive for the IS250. I was rather concerned as there's hardly any difference in claimed power output and 0-62mph times and phoned the insurance company who stated it was down to the car having a V6 and being "rare". Take that how you will but I thought it was just a way of making money personally.

In terms of driving, the IS250 is good but i'd say its the IS300h which wins and that's simply because of the instant torque. The IS250 IMO is weedy, the torque is too low and you have to rev its guts out to get it to shift anywhere (causes it to actually become less refined than the IS300h as it ends up being quite loud ALL of the time when you do that and fuel economy goes to about 18mpg). In contrast, the IS300h has plenty of instant torque to get it moving and mid range power is immense (the quoted 0-62mph times dont show this). It genuinely gob-smacks people with faster cars (Audi A5 3.0l TDI and Merc C250 CDI).

I would also say that the IS300h is a better balanced car. Although it has more weight in total, more than the 250 at the rear, it helps offset the nose heavy front too which you only really noticed when pushing the car on B roads.

[Spacewagon52]

Rayaan, you should be a saleman for Lexus! I am almost convinced!

[rayaans]

Rayaan, you should be a saleman for Lexus! I am almost convinced!

Just my views lol - Id get fired if I was a salesmen - id be claiming the spec sheet for the NX is all wrong and that the CT stinks ha!

[marko369]

I had similiar views to you before my wife got the IS300h and I drove it back on the motorway from Chester.

First of all, I think the IS250 is a smooth engine and refined with the 6 speed gearbox, however, there isn't much between the IS250 and IS300h in terms of smoothness. In fact, it is easily arguable that the IS300h is smoother due to the CVT which doesn't shift at all - the IS250 6 speed can get hesitant when asking too much of it. I would also say that refinement of the IS250 is less than the IS300h and that is simply down to the electric drivetrain - completely silent when driving along at low speeds in town unless you brake, but even then, its not obtrusive and it almost sounds like you're going to the future.

In terms of repairs, the IS250 actually costs MORE to service due to extra cylinders and some other stuff. Lexus Bradford quoted me £990 for 3 IS250 services and £750 for 3 IS300h services (both were 20,30 and 40k services). Essentially its £240 over 3 years which isn't much but even if you drive 5k miles a year at the claimed MPG figures, it would make a £200 difference in petrol costs and a further £215 cost in tax annually. Therefore over 3 years you lose £1485 and 5k miles a year is very low!

Not to mention, the IS300h holds value much better for a few reasons. Firstly, its being replaced by the IS200t and when a new model comes out, a car will always lose value as its no longer desirable. Furthermore, the running costs puts it out of reach for people who drive even 10k miles a year and as a rule, its not as desirable as the IS300h in the current times. I wouldn't worry about reliability, Lexus hybrids are insanely reliable, may even be more so than the IS250 which has carbon build up problems.

One odd thing I found was that insurance price is more expensive for the IS250. I was rather concerned as there's hardly any difference in claimed power output and 0-62mph times and phoned the insurance company who stated it was down to the car having a V6 and being "rare". Take that how you will but I thought it was just a way of making money personally.

In terms of driving, the IS250 is good but i'd say its the IS300h which wins and that's simply because of the instant torque. The IS250 IMO is weedy, the torque is too low and you have to rev its guts out to get it to shift anywhere (causes it to actually become less refined than the IS300h as it ends up being quite loud ALL of the time when you do that and fuel economy goes to about 18mpg). In contrast, the IS300h has plenty of instant torque to get it moving and mid range power is immense (the quoted 0-62mph times dont show this). It genuinely gob-smacks people with faster cars (Audi A5 3.0l TDI and Merc C250 CDI).

I would also say that the IS300h is a better balanced car. Although it has more weight in total, more than the 250 at the rear, it helps offset the nose heavy front too which you only really noticed when pushing the car on B roads.

This mans talking sense

Sent from my Iphone using Tapatalk

[ganzoom]

The PROVEN reliability of the Toyota hybrid system is one of the reasons my wife bought a brand new IS300H instead of a petrol/diesel Jag XE/Merc C class etc. Our IS300H will be with us for well into the next decade.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/2011/02/the-200-000-mile-question-how-does-the-toyota-prius-hold-up/index.htm

I'm not sure how 'intrusive whine' of the electric drivetrain can be annoying compared to the racket made by any petrol engine. The worst part of our IS300H is the 4 cylinder petrol engine - I just wish it could run in EV mode 100% of the time....Which is why soon after my wife took delivery of the IS300H, I sold my BMW 335i (which is about as good as it gets interms of a smooth power delivery from a inline 6 petrol engine) and bought a Nissan Leaf :)

Test drove a Tesla P85D last weekend.....I honestly cannot see a future for any petrol/diesel powered cars when Battery cost fall over the next 2-3 years - The technology is here already its now just getting the cost down. I'll be putting in a order for a Tesla in 12 months time when the PCP deal on the Leaf finishes.

The IS300H is the last car we'll buy in our house hold that still has a petrol/diesel engine in!!!

[wh05apk]

Ganzoom, exactly the same thoughts as me, we test drive a Mercedes e class coupe, which I have always loved from afar, but after driving the lexus, the Interior felt bland, and the refinement was like a tractor.

After a couple of days, I also decided petrol and diesel were history, my next car will be electric, hopefully something like an electric rcf with about a 250 mile range.

[capese21]

The Hybrid drive is very reliable.There are Prius taxi`s with over 300k miles on them still running well with the original traction Battery. I read a comparison of a 200k mile Prius with a new one and there was little difference noted in performance etc.

It takes longer than a short test drive to appreciate the qualities of the is300h imho. Saying that I was impressed from the start that's why i bought one!

Ed

[200h]

Ganzoom, exactly the same thoughts as me, we test drive a Mercedes e class coupe, which I have always loved from afar, but after driving the lexus, the Interior felt bland, and the refinement was like a tractor.

After a couple of days, I also decided petrol and diesel were history, my next car will be electric, hopefully something like an electric rcf with about a 250 mile range.

have you seen this electric car

http://www.partsgateway.co.uk/pgtimes/porsche-electric-600bhp-car

[wh05apk]

Ganzoom, exactly the same thoughts as me, we test drive a Mercedes e class coupe, which I have always loved from afar, but after driving the lexus, the Interior felt bland, and the refinement was like a tractor.

After a couple of days, I also decided petrol and diesel were history, my next car will be electric, hopefully something like an electric rcf with about a 250 mile range.

have you seen this electric car

http://www.partsgateway.co.uk/pgtimes/porsche-electric-600bhp-car

Yeah, I suppose that will do!

......If I could negotiate about a 70% discount that is?.........

[ganzoom]

have you seen this electric car

http://www.partsgateway.co.uk/pgtimes/porsche-electric-600bhp-car

It looks good doesn't it, and Porsche is hinting at some interesting tech, 800volt recharging in 15 minutes, a slightly different motor design. Apparently production aimed for 2018. All of a sudden deciding which £50K+ EV to buy in 2017/18 has become much more difficult :)

EV Battery technology is already good enough for 90% of divers, its just the cost at moment.

Nissan can produce a 250 mile range Leaf now, but they wouldn't, because they know no one is going to pay £50K+ for a Nissan, even the GTR is hard sell for many. Interms of value for money, the Tesla actually offers the best £ per kWh!! These costs are on the way down though, so it's good news for us consumers - The Nissan Leaf 30kwh, Spark EV, and Tesla S (90) the three 'best value' EVs have all come out in the last 6 months :)

Unfortunately as much as I appreciate what a good job Toyota/Lexus have done with the IS300H, their obsession with chasing hydrogen fuel cell technology means their current range of hybrids are going to be made to look very out-dated once Audi/Porsche/Mercedes start pumping out Battery EVs to compete with Tesla at the premium end of the market. Toyota has openly admitted fuel cell technology wouldn't be ready for mass production till 2020 at the earliest, the Mirai at the moment is essentially a hand built car, who knows how far Battery technology will have advanced by than :(

[rayaans]

have you seen this electric car

http://www.partsgateway.co.uk/pgtimes/porsche-electric-600bhp-car

It looks good doesn't it, and Porsche is hinting at some interesting tech, 800volt recharging in 15 minutes, a slightly different motor design. Apparently production aimed for 2018. All of a sudden deciding which £50K+ EV to buy in 2017/18 has become much more difficult :)

EV Battery technology is already good enough for 90% of divers, its just the cost at moment.

Nissan can produce a 250 mile range Leaf now, but they wouldn't, because they know no one is going to pay £50K+ for a Nissan, even the GTR is hard sell for many. Interms of value for money, the Tesla actually offers the best £ per kWh!! These costs are on the way down though, so it's good news for us consumers - The Nissan Leaf 30kwh, Spark EV, and Tesla S (90) the three 'best value' EVs have all come out in the last 6 months :)

Unfortunately as much as I appreciate what a good job Toyota/Lexus have done with the IS300H, their obsession with chasing hydrogen fuel cell technology means their current range of hybrids are going to be made to look very out-dated once Audi/Porsche/Mercedes start pumping out Battery EVs to compete with Tesla at the premium end of the market. Toyota has openly admitted fuel cell technology wouldn't be ready for mass production till 2020 at the earliest, the Mirai at the moment is essentially a hand built car, who knows how far Battery technology will have advanced by than :(

Now I would buy that - 15 mins charge, perfect! Thats what the Porsche Panamera SHOULD have looked like

[ganzoom]

Now I would buy that - 15 mins charge, perfect! Thats what the Porsche Panamera SHOULD have looked like

Me too!!

Went for a test drive in an i3 today with the in-laws, they are looking for something to replace their Mini. They are now 100% sold on the idea of an EV, probably a Zoe, at £160/month - £500 deposit for a brand new car with sat-nav/bluetooth/auto-light etc, the deals are too good to ignore!! We'll going to see one tomorrow and they'll probably order if the numbers work out as promised.

We than got chatting about something that could replace their E-Class, and the only real option at the moment is a Tesla Model S. The sooner established brands start cashing in on the EV market the better.....

Which is why I find Toyota/Lexus stand on hydrogen fuel cells cars so frustrating....The IS300H is the reason I looked into EVs, I'll happily part with a very big wedge of ££££ in exchange for a IS/GS with a full Battery EV drivetrain, but that's just not going to happen :(

[rayaans]

The only problem I can see with EVs is that once everyone gets on the bandwagon the government will start taxing it and charging for using city charge points etc

[ganzoom]

^^ But they cannot tax home charging - Not unless they tax electricity which will cause all your electric costs to go up. I now do most of my charging at home. It's so easy and cheap - £2 for 100 miles, 30 seconds to plug in the charger when the car is on the drive way.

As for road tax and the £5K grant, that's why I'm getting in early. My in laws will almost certainly get an EV by the end of the month. I'm going to get another one in 12 months - The current grant will be extended to at least 2017-18. So that's £15K worth of EV grants + x3 EV home chargers we would have got in household :

Road tax - All current EVs are exempt and cannot see that changing for a good few years. Again it's unlikely they will retrospectivly apply tax to already bought cars.

My view is simple - If your requirements mean you can use an EV, with all the central funding on them now, why wouldn't you jump on board ASAP :)

I hope you can now see why I'm so frustrated Lexus/Toyota is still chasing the impossible dream of hydrogen fuel cell cars when Battery EVs are here and now - and getting cheaper by the day!!

[wh05apk]

I agree Battery must be the future, so simple, and relatively cheap.

Several manufacturers seem obsessed with hydrogen, but I really can't see the benefit of producing hydrogen elsewhere simply to use in an on board generator, surely electricity can be generated more efficiently off site?

The onlybenefit I can see is range when hydrogen stations become common, but I'm confident by then the range/capacity of batteries will be far better.

Once the range issue is resolved hopefully manufacturers will produce affordable and desirable cars , if lexus did an is electric with a real life 250 range for similar proceed to the 300h that would be perfect, surely a Battery and motor should ultimately be cheaper than the complex engine,hybrid set up currently?

[ganzoom]

if lexus did an is electric with a real life 250 range for similar proceed to the 300h that would be perfect

If Lexus offered any product that could compete with Tesla on range/price, I would buy the Lexus without a second thought. The most annoying thing....out of all the current car manufactures, Lexus/Toyota has by far the most experience with Battery and EV tech, and the manufacturing capacity to drive down costs. I'm sure Toyota/Lexus could turn round a full Battery EV in half the time of Audi/BMW/Merc. But sadly the top brass at Toyota/Lexus clearly have a very personal disagreement with guys running Nissan/Tesla regarding future technology.....I just hope it doesn't turn out to be a very expensive mistake for Toyota/Lexus in the long run.

[Spacewagon52]

Betamax and VHS come to mind! Yes ........... I bought a Betamax!

[rayaans]

But you have to understand the Toyota isn't going to come out with anything until its been properly tested by THEM! They took a long time to get onto the Turbo bandwagon (something which they said they would NEVER do) and therefore I'd expect them to take equally long to get onto the electric bandwagon.

Hydrogen may well be the future, when the first Hydrogen car that Toyota make can do 300 miles, it sure as hell is going to get much better! Its arguable that Hydrogen is also much cleaner than using electric which is where government taxation may come in down the line.

[DJP]

I've been spending far too much time researching all this (in my wife's opinion) and I'm pretty sure I'll be in a Tesla within the next 9 months. There is a trade off in quality between the Lexus and the S, no doubt about it, but the economics and power etc are pretty compelling.

The range still worries me slightly though. For 99% of my driving it's perfect, I rarely do more than 75 miles in a day, and charging at home overnight using economy 7 gives me range of 140 miles no problem at all. My longest regular drive is to Bournemouth. 110 miles each way, could probably do that on one charge, but we always stop at one of the 3 or 4 service stations so topping up no big deal, and there's a Tesla supercharger at Winchester services so even better. BUT, if there's an emergency, as I had yesterday, range anxiety comes into play. I suddenly had an extra 50 miles to do, which assuming I'd left home with a full charge wouldn't have been a problem, but I would have been fretting. The worry is twofold, the time it takes to charge, and the instances of units either not working or in use (or ICE'd).

I'm still sold on the idea, but it does require a different mindset, and if the driving pattern is subject to last minute change I don't think I'd be happy to risk it.

As for hydrogen, that's a long long way away IMO.

[Bratman91]

Many thanks to those who responded to my original post - the comments were interesting and thoughtful, and were thought-provoking. They haven't persuaded me that the IS300 is a better car than the IS250 but, as others have pointed out, we are in only the very early days of electric cars (OK - I know that electric cars have been around for many decades but you know what I mean!) so I am open to changing my mind as the technology improves.

I remain sceptical of some of the claimed advantages of electric cars and suspect that they will in any case be offset by disadvantages. Re-charging cars on your drive sounds great but what about the hundreds of thousands of motorists who have to park on the roadside or in positions where electrical outlets are not available? Having charging points as ubiquitous as parking meters will be hugely expensive to install and operate - this will have to be paid for and you know by whom!

I also wonder if the electrical power distribution systems both in the home and in the street would be robust enought to cope with what would be an enormous demand if there was a widespread move to electric cars. Upgrading such systems would again, not be cheap or free. And I also doubt that charging cars on your drive would be free of tax as suggested. A widespread move to electric cars would cause a gigantic reduction in tax revenues and the government - any government - would need to recoup this in some other way. If, as I suspect, home charging would require a major upgrade to the domestic power system, it would be fairly easy to include a means of measuring consumption for car tax purposes. It has been said that there are only three certainties in life - birth, death and taxes - and I don't see motorists escaping much of the last certainty by switching to an electric car once they have become the norm.

[Deadloak]

One way they could tax you for an electric car is for home charging. Could be the need for a charging licence, dastardly, but possible.

Or if you have a fast charging point, the electricity is 'charged' at a higher rate per unit.

David

​

[rayaans]

One way they could tax you for an electric car is for home charging. Could be the need for a charging licence, dastardly, but possible.

Or if you have a fast charging point, the electricity is 'charged' at a higher rate per unit.

David

​

Or eventually, instead of giving a grant they could add a £5k "tax" on electric cars only lol