I'd Never Considered A Lexus ...

[gypmaster]

Hello all,

I've just started looking for a new 'runabout' motor and have a budget of £4.5k. I was pretty set on getting a Honda Civic/Ford Focus/Seat Leon diesel but, on a whim, decided to look at all makes and models on autotrader around my budget.

I'd never considered a Lexus and was surprised when I saw that were a good few IS 220 2.2 TD's with FSH around 100k mileage within my budget!

I suppose I'd like some advice on why I would or wouldn't buy the Lexus over the Civic/Focus/Seat mob.

Thanks in advance,

Mark

p.s have owned Celica gen 6 and 7 for the last 10 years so am used to toyota reliability

[ChumpusRex]

The diesel engine has terrible reliability problems with the emissions system.

There is also a problem with carbon buildup on the cylinder bores damaging the cylinder block and head gadket causing the head gasket to fail at 70-120k miles. This is not repairable and requires engine replacement.

You would be better looking at the petrol IS250 which has similar fuel economy as the diesel, with considerably better reliability.

[Bluesman]

Hi Mark and welcome to the LOC, we are a
friendly bunch and some of us even know how to pull them to bits and
put them back together again, with of course the one bolt and washer
left over.

I am no good in sorting you present
problem but someone will be along shortly to help.

Regards Mike.

[Jamesf1]

Agree with first response, IS250 petrol is a better bet than the diesel.

[normski2]

+3 to that.

The 250 is the best.

I've had both 220d and 250.....chalk and cheese.

If you are very very lucky you may find a good 220 but there are not too many of those in all honesty.

"have owned Celica gen 6 and 7 for the last 10 years so am used to toyota reliability".......don't wish to be alarmist but the 220d may change that view quite considerably.

Go and audition both and see what you think.

[johnatg]

By 'runabout' you imply short journeys. Absolutely do not buy a 220D or any other diesel with a dpf for that usage.

[gypmaster]

The diesel engine has terrible reliability problems with the emissions system.

There is also a problem with carbon buildup on the cylinder bores damaging the cylinder block and head gadket causing the head gasket to fail at 70-120k miles. This is not repairable and requires engine replacement.

You would be better looking at the petrol IS250 which has similar fuel economy as the diesel, with considerably better reliability.

Thanks guys, pretty conclusive then - AVOID the 220!

By 'runabout' you imply short journeys. Absolutely do not buy a 220D or any other diesel with a dpf for that usage.

Yeah, mainly short journeys but with a weekly 50m run. The main reason I looked at the 2.2 Civic was because it doesn't have a DPF on it - and there's the potential to remap whenever I have the cash/desire.

Thanks again guys.

[toffee_pie]

Hello all,

I've just started looking for a new 'runabout' motor and have a budget of £4.5k. I was pretty set on getting a Honda Civic/Ford Focus/Seat Leon diesel but, on a whim, decided to look at all makes and models on autotrader around my budget.

I'd never considered a Lexus and was surprised when I saw that were a good few IS 220 2.2 TD's with FSH around 100k mileage within my budget!

I suppose I'd like some advice on why I would or wouldn't buy the Lexus over the Civic/Focus/Seat mob.

Thanks in advance,

Mark

p.s have owned Celica gen 6 and 7 for the last 10 years so am used to toyota reliability

don't buy a 220d ffs, the place is littered with people posting up issues. Sounds dreadful but many 220d owners wished they had a petrol.

Dont be fooled by the Price and badge, the engine is a lump from toyota and its not a good car at all.

[Shahpor]

Not feeling too welcome here at the moment :(

To be fair to the 220d, yes it is not as good as the is250, but I don't think it is quite as bad as you guys make out.

Yes, there is an issue with the engine, but according to the guys at Jemca Lexus, there is relatively very few failures compared to the number of diesels they see.

Either way, I would recommend an extended Lexus Warranty regardless of if you bought a diesel or petrol, which would make the engine problem a non issue.

As for the problems, forums are generally places where people come if they have a problem. You don't really hear anything positive. Before buying mine, I considered many other cars and visiting their forum, you would think all cars are crap!

My friend bought a BMW 118d 6 months ago. He should get it back today after a failure of 4 injectors, flywheel, timing chain, crank pully, engine mounts and water pump. His bill is currently in the region of £4500. The guy at the garage has done 4 timing chains in 2 months. Engine out job.

Is the IS250 a better car? Yes. Are the diesels as horribly unreliable as you guys make out? I am not so sure.

Just my opinion of course.

[toffee_pie]

Diesels are for tractors, I never want a diesel of any sort. Any petrol head or car enthusiasts needs a Petrol.

I don't car if they cost £70 a year to tax, Don't want one.

[Shahpor]

Well, that is a different issue, isn't it?

It sounds like even if the IS220D was the most reliable car in the world, you still wouldn't want one.

I agree a true petrol head would only buy petrol though. In fact, like Top Gear said, you can't be one until you own an Alfa Romeo. Just so happens I have owned one in the past :)

[gypmaster]

Not feeling too welcome here at the moment :(

To be fair to the 220d, yes it is not as good as the is250, but I don't think it is quite as bad as you guys make out.

Yes, there is an issue with the engine, but according to the guys at Jemca Lexus, there is relatively very few failures compared to the number of diesels they see.

Either way, I would recommend an extended Lexus Warranty regardless of if you bought a diesel or petrol, which would make the engine problem a non issue.

As for the problems, forums are generally places where people come if they have a problem. You don't really hear anything positive. Before buying mine, I considered many other cars and visiting their forum, you would think all cars are crap!

My friend bought a BMW 118d 6 months ago. He should get it back today after a failure of 4 injectors, flywheel, timing chain, crank pully, engine mounts and water pump. His bill is currently in the region of £4500. The guy at the garage has done 4 timing chains in 2 months. Engine out job.

Is the IS250 a better car? Yes. Are the diesels as horribly unreliable as you guys make out? I am not so sure.

Just my opinion of course.

I take your point about car forums putting you off buying a model but I've never had such strong direction from so many people when going to the forums for advice.

Looks like the Civic 2.2 is favourite for me.

[toffee_pie]

people are swayed into a 220D because

-) Its a lexus

-) supposedly cheaper running costs and tax

but this is a bit of a misnomer really as they are anything but cheaper to keep on the road, what with all the issues surrounding them, but even if there is absolutely nothing wrong with one a 220D and V6 petrol is like day and night, so no even if it was the most reliable in the world I wouldn't want one.

I never owned an alfa and I do like petrols. I did briefly look into a brera but am not at all convinced it would be anything as reliable as a petrol lexus

[Womble72]

I'm on my 4th IS, I love them, I did look at the diesel. Was warned of the cylinder issue, BUT was told IF it's been repaired then it should give lots of travel free miles, I opted out, but purely the fact that there is NO further diesel unit from Lexus, my previous IS 250 was auto and that averaged between 24mpg to 41 at best on a run, the manuals are even better, so I imagine if your looking to the diesel, then a manual petrol would be an option.

[Shahpor]

Well, to be fair:

-) it is a Lexus, which is a good thing

-) It is cheaper to run and tax, no matter how marginal.

As for the Alfa, it would not be as reliable or well build as the Lexus, but that is not the point of owning an one. It is the quirks that give it character, which inevitably lead to some issues. Having said that, they are not nearly as bad as they used to be.

My old 156 V6 would get me about 15mpg. It understeered like nothing I have seen before, and the driving position was horrible. Add to that the service when it required all 20 wheel nuts drilled out cause they wouldn't budge, along with the rust, and it wasn't the cheapest car I ever owned.

Having said that, it looked lovely, and my god, what a noise it made! I also couldn't help stare at it when I got out. And I do still miss it today, even though it cost me a lot of money.

Sorry about derailing your thread gypmaster. You going for the Civic then?

[gypmaster]

Well, to be fair:

-) it is a Lexus, which is a good thing

-) It is cheaper to run and tax, no matter how marginal.

As for the Alfa, it would not be as reliable or well build as the Lexus, but that is not the point of owning an one. It is the quirks that give it character, which inevitably lead to some issues. Having said that, they are not nearly as bad as they used to be.

My old 156 V6 would get me about 15mpg. It understeered like nothing I have seen before and the driving position was horrible. Add to that the service when it required all 20 wheel nuts drilled out cause they wouldn't come out, and the rust, and it wasn't the cheapest car I ever owned.

Having said that, it looked lovely, and my god, what I noise it made! I couldn't help stare at it when I got out. And I do still miss it today, even though it cost me a lot of money.

Sorry about derailing your thread gypmaster. You going for the Civic then?

I think I'll go for the Civic. I feel really drawn to the IS250 and it's 204bhp though.

Being used to the 190bhp in my Celica it's quite a drop to 140 ish in the Civic.

I can't really stretch to the price of the IS250 at the moment and I know I'd be doing well to get 25mpg out of it ... shame, but probably the Civic (save some cash and get the remap).

[Spacewagon52]

It can be a bit off putting reading the forums here with some of the problems people experience. Overall I would trust a Japanese derived car over other makes. I have been tempted away by Volvo, BMW, VW, Skoda but non have them have ever matched the reliability of the Toyota / Datsun/ Mitsubishi's I have owned.

Nothing drives me more round the twist than car that seems to have constant issues that need sorting. I am still not of the opinion

that all modern cars have similar reliability. When it is MY money I am spending, I like to play it safe. One day I could buy a Jap pup - then you WILL hear about it! LOL!

[noby76]

have you considered a Gen1 Lexus IS? late models could be picked up for less than your budget and are nice to drive. I would say test drive a late model IS200 and IS300. the 200 would be a bit cheaper to run.

[gypmaster]

I bought an '07 Civic 2.2 with FSH today.

Thanks for all the help guys.

[chris_abr]

I don't get why you're all so negative.

 

Truth is, IS220D may not be as reliable as a petrol Lexus, but it's a hell of a lot better than the Germans and most other Japaniese diesels.

 

Diesels used to be more reliable than Petrols, and go for longer without requiring repairs, but nowadays with the emissions requirements all diesels are a lot less reliable. Because of the associated emmisions hardware (EGR clogging up, DPF failures, head gasket issues because of the EGR, etc), all diesels are less reliable than petrols nowadays.

 

if you compare the failure rates of the IS220D and the diesel competition of similar age, the IS220D is a lot more reliable.

Not Lexus reliable, but very reliable for newer diesels.

 

I'm saying that as mine's just gone through its 200,000th mile today with the same engine/gearbox/turbo, and most other components.

[johnatg]

We're probably unfair on 220Ds when they are used as they are supposed to be! Yours has averaged 20K miles a year - I guess you mostly do longish journeys, or at least do so regularly. That's what keeps a modern diesel engine in good nick.

But many people don't do that - they use the car locally and only do a decent run once a month or so (if that). And they don't drive hard enough (few people do) - but that means the dpf doesn't get regenerated and the EGR clogs up.

So many people have been conned into diesels by alleged good minimal fuel consumption and low road tax - then they drive them round town, never get above 50 mph and never do more than 20 miles at a time. And they get problems.

Diesels are fine for long distance company car drivers or people with a similar driving regime. They are totally unsuitable for normal commuters, school runs and shoppers. (As the insurance companies put it - social, domestic and pleasure). IMHO.

Horses for courses!

[Shahpor]

Well said Chris.

To be fair, the problems most people experience (EGR, DPF, etc) are, as John says, down to the style of driving.  I do motorway miles on mine and the EGR and DPF are fine (Touch wood ).

Also, these problems are an issue for all modern diesels, not just 220D's.  So by virtue of being a diesel, the 220D is automatically susceptible to these problems.  There is nothing Lexus could have done about it.

So, apart from the head gasket problem (hardly the only design flaw that manufacturers have suffered from), the only real issues that 220D owners have to endure is turbo lag and bad gearing.  And with those, once you get used to it and adapt your driving style aren't that bad. 

[Womble72]

I may well be wrong, BUT, I'm LED to believe the Diesel issues on ALL cars are mainly down to using cheap supermarket fuels, I've a friend (mechanic) who informs me the only way to buy a diesel is new, that way u know what fuels been put in, they also state that u need to doing in the region of 25k a year mileage to make it a worthy purchase due to the additional new cost difference,.....they do say you get what u pay for, I've not used a supermarket fuel station for about 8 years now

[Shahpor]

Well, my understanding is that, while using cheap fuel does make a difference, it is mainly the type of journey that does the harm.  The cars run rich on startup (like a choke), which builds up carbon if it is not allowed to be burnt away when the car is warm.  Also, for it to be burnt off, it needs to be doing some reasonable revs, not just idling.

From what the Lexus tech told me, the DPF in particular needs to get nice and hot to clear up properly.

Incidentally, this also applies to petrol cars, just not to the same extent.  My mums car recently wouldn't idle, and it turns out it was carbon buildup in the throttle body not letting air through.  A good blast once in a while would have sorted it.

[Cracksta]

I think the 220D has been knocked a bit harder than it should however specifically talking is250 vs is220D, it seems the IS250 petrol is the preferred model regarding reliability. Probably due to how people's driving styles (lots of stop starts and not enough time to get the car hot or on long runs).

In regards to petrol vs diesel, they both have pros and cons and people who buy a diesel should know exactly what they are getting themselves into/driving style/etc.

In this thread, we may have saved the OP from headaches of getting a 220D down the road but this carbon build/DPF issue exists on other cars too so we cant taint the 220D alone.

The decision it seems that an petrol is250 SE-L / F sport model with auto seems to be the favored here but thats not to say its the best car here.