Could Have Been Worse, I Could Have Bought A Bmw

[harrylime]

after persevering to stop the leaks in my aircon system, I was considering buying a newer car, to cut down on the time sorting out car problems. I looked at BMW 5 series and it seems that newish cars, 2010 onwards, have had air con condenser failures in the thousands, with BMW importing replacements at the rate of 450 a week.Owners are having to wait many weeks or months to get the repairs completed, as dealers are swamped. Another problem seems to be timing chain and tensioner failures, which also seem frighteningly common and which costs between 4500 and 6000 to put right, depending on whether the crank is affected.. One owner paid 1000 for a warranty, only to have his claim rejected as it was "fair wear and tear". The garage said it was mechanical failure. He paid the 4500, I would have fought tooth and nail.

Many owners seem to be very critical of BMW, as deteriorating in quality over the past few years. I always liked how BMWs drove and my 2004 330 D estate was one of the best cars I ever owned. It's a shame, and an absolute disgrace for a company with the engineering resources of a company like BMW. I feel for the owners.

So BMW are off my shopping list, as style seems to be over substance nowadays. Unless my usage changes, the fuel consumption on my LS seems to be a small price to pay for the total confidence with which I set out today on my 5 hour journey to West Wales. The journey was a joy, so easy oasy, as Billy Connolly would say.

Now, about the LS 600H, can any owners give a review of their ownership experiences?

[Malc]

............ there are some Ls600 owner reviews of their issues on here and quite frankly they seem to put me off getting one !! I pay for my own repairs etc.

A new Ls600 is really out of the question but a reasonably good and priced used car could be on the cards BUT I just don't think I would get the absolute peace of mind that I get with running my tried and tested steed.

One day no doubt I shall have to move into another Ls I guess but the air suspension woes just simply put me off .................. just trying to think why I would want to change from my 1995 Mk3.

No rational answer ever seems to spring to mind

Malc

[Carl911]

I have the ls600 in mind for next purchase but I'd not buy one without a couple of years Lexus warranty on it. As mentioned, if anything goes wrong it's nearly always £1000's to fix rather than 100's.

Carl

[harrylime]

Despite cars getting better in most ways, it is getting difficult to accurately forecast what many cars will cost to run. I agree with Carl that many owners get stung for thousands for repairs, and as I pay for my own repairs, it would be brutal to get hit with a bill like that. Journalists obsess about this car being a second faster to 60 than that car, and about fuel consumption, but never seem to explore long term ownership costs, or build quality.

Car makers don't appear to care about the albatrosses they hang around owners' necks. When I read about problems on newish cars with DPFs, dual mass flywheels, failed turbos, air suspension systems, EGRs, timing chain and tensioner failures, catastrophic engine failures (Mazda 6), power steering failures (Vauxhall) pedestrian airbags going off while driving over potholes and costing a fortune to repair (Jag XF), cars that car thieves are able to effortlessly steal with a laptop and a bit of software (BMW and others) I wonder where the JD Power team get their data from. Some forums for quality, executive cars are just a litany of expensive sob stories.

Many owners seem to lose their cars for weeks for repairs, having paid a fortune for them in the first place. Clearly, it is dissatisfied owners that tend to post, but the sheer scale of problems is staggering. I remember going on a holiday with mates and the engine failing in our cortina mk 1. Two of the lads had it towed to a scrapyard, found a suitable engine, and replaced it within a couple of hours, and probably with just two or three spanners. I sometimes think we would be better going back to basics. Or here's an idea. What about manufacturers not waste any more time on their current efforts to gain 1 mpg, so that they can advertise a better headline rate of fuel consumption, which is never remotely achievable anyway. Why not stop wasting time trying to reduce emissions with clumsy devices like filters, which by their very nature, will inevitably get blocked and land people with a big bill,. Why don't manufactures stop concealing from drivers the fact that they cannot take short journeys, only long ones, thus ignoring the driving habits of the vast majority of car owners. Why not stop wasting time trying to add more and more technology to cars, to the point where driving needs more concentration than docking a Shuttle at the International Space Station. Why not instead focus on what drivers really want, which is refinement, low levels of noise, vibration and harshness, components that last years before they wear out or fail, rather than months. Why not, as road surfaces deteriorate before our eyes, focus on ride comfort instead of the ability to shave off half a second at the Nurburgring. People can opt for sportier models if they wish, but I'm pretty sure most of us value our vertebrae over a few minutes off a typical journey. I'm pretty sure a 1960 Morris Oxford rode more comfortably than the majority of modern cars. Just watch some old films of the 50s to the 80s and you can see, as cars pull up, the lovely soft suspension settling. Do all these things and perhaps, after owning over 70 cars, and currently being in the market for a 2 - 3 year old car, preferably a hatch or estate for daily use, I might be able to think of one car, at any price point, that I can truly say I aspire to, because I can honestly say there is not one car that fits the bill at the moment. For many years, I could not afford a decent car, but now that I can, I'm stumped. (My 400 is a weekend/hobby car btw)

[Carl911]

I understand where you are coming from.

Several times I discussed with my wife what car to buy next, something I'd buy that I really want and not for being the fastest or most economic or the best looking design etc.

There really is very little out there that I like any more. I have no interest in cars like fords, vauxhalls and what I class as more middle range cars as I have had them over the years and frankly the older cars were in my opinion far better.

I always come back to Lexus now. Even if I went for something sporty now I'd probably look at an isf and if I'm going for a compromise of luxury and performance then I'd get another gs450 or the ls.

I dont think I have become too snobby driving Lexus over the years and they are certainly not without there problems but compared to other brands I still feel less likely to be breaking down in the Lexus than any other car on the road.

As said before, with the more technical hybrid cars I'd definitely pay the extra for the warranty just for piece of mind. With the non hybrid cars I would not be as concerned as these seem pretty well proven.

I still feel something special driving in the Lexus and still glance back every time I park up, enough said.

Carl

[Malc]

..... and supremacy reigns with the Ls400 I guess !!!

Malc

[Ruud]

I owned a 2007 BMW 730d in the beginning of the year.

I can easily say that that car was one of most unreliable cars I have ever driven.

Every week an other error popped up on the display.

Quick back to Lexus it was :)

[Loathecliff]

.

One day no doubt I shall have to move into another Ls I guess but the air suspension woes just simply put me off .................. just trying to think why I would want to change from my 1995 Mk3.

No rational answer ever seems to spring to mind

Malc

That Malc is because you have not yet driven a 430 converted to coilovers :)

[harrylime]

.

One day no doubt I shall have to move into another Ls I guess but the air suspension woes just simply put me off .................. just trying to think why I would want to change from my 1995 Mk3.

No rational answer ever seems to spring to mind

Malc

That Malc is because you have not yet driven a 430 converted to coilovers :)

Is this an easy conversion, and what does it cost?

[Malc]

.......... little point my buying a Ls430 to spend the coilover conversion costs, gearbox/radiator changes, steering column fixes, delaminated window fixes and mild steel back boxes fix ...........

when one day my car just expires then I guess will be the time to make the change .............. after all, I do still have my torch in the toolkit ! ...................... probably about 25 years time I guess

[Ruud]

Don't forget the Mark Levinson stereo. They fail too. Plus the speakers in the doors are a far inferior quality and disintegrate over time.

[Titch LS]

I wouldn't touch a modern used german car with a barge pole. I know too many people who've owned one who have spent fortunes on repairs. I'm not talking about basic replacement of worn out components here, (as in most older Lexus cars), but catastrophic untimely failure of parts that should last for many, many years .i.e autoboxes, dual mass flywheels, A/C systems, timing chain adjusters, swirl flaps, and Diesel particulate filters to name but a few. You would have thought that any buyer after a second hand motor would learn to avoid German makes but the 'kudos' is too strong obviously. Top Gear did an excellent propaganda job.

[harrylime]

I wouldn't touch a modern used german car with a barge pole. I know too many people who've owned one who have spent fortunes on repairs. I'm not talking about basic replacement of worn out components here, (as in most older Lexus cars), but catastrophic untimely failure of parts that should last for many, many years .i.e autoboxes, dual mass flywheels, A/C systems, timing chain adjusters, swirl flaps, and Diesel particulate filters to name but a few. You would have thought that any buyer after a second hand motor would learn to avoid German makes but the 'kudos' is too strong obviously. Top Gear did an excellent propaganda job.

I agree, and the more you read, the more depressing it becomes, as these are clearly not the occasional isolated problem. Even Lexus aren't immune from problems they seem unable to solve. I quite fancy an RX, but it appears that they fail to start if left for more than a few days, due to inadequate auxiliary batteries. Owners are having to come up with solutions, including solar chargers , rewiring cigarette lighters etc., which should not be necessary

[ColinBarber]

The issue of an under capacity RX Battery is hardly the same thing as major component failure.

[Malc]

... but it does just go to show how minor the Lexus issues are compared to German !! ....... long live the Ls400

Malc

[Loathecliff]

Is this an easy conversion, and what does it cost?

Hugh, the coilovers were on the car when I bought it. In fact, they were the reason I bought it.

http://www.strutmasters.com/products/2000-2006-lexus-ls430-4-wheel-air-suspension-conversion-kit-td14f/

In my quest for more service history I have not received a response from the company that owned the car when the work was done so I cannot tell you how much the import & fitting costs were.

.......

Malc, for at least the second time: ls430 rear boxes are NOT mild steel.

Would it be too much trouble for you to ask an owner of one if he/she would flip it onto its roof for you to inspect?

[Malc]

Is this an easy conversion, and what does it cost?

Hugh, the coilovers were on the car when I bought it. In fact, they were the reason I bought it.

http://www.strutmasters.com/products/2000-2006-lexus-ls430-4-wheel-air-suspension-conversion-kit-td14f/

In my quest for more service history I have not received a response from the company that owned the car when the work was done so I cannot tell you how much the import & fitting costs were.

.......

Malc, for at least the second time: ls430 rear boxes are NOT mild steel.

Would it be too much trouble for you to ask an owner of one if he/she would flip it onto its roof for you to inspect?

Stuart hi,

I'm very pleased they're not mild steel.

I thought earlier posts about this issue have been aired and those owners were saddened that there own Ls430's were so and causing them replacement concerns.

However I haven't seen a Ls430 upside down and hope I never shall ................ it would sadden me

Malc

[ROYT]

As above I'll stick with my old LS'94. Some of the repair prices people are paying on relatively new cars

is unbelievable.

I think we are now expected to pay for factory design faults and failures that should not be happening before 10 years of use.

Major makers are charging higher and higher prices, skimping on quality at every opportunity and we are paying for it.

Too many electronic gadgets that are linked to each other on the modern stuff. any fault is an instant rip off price even if it is diagnosed correctly first time. [fat chance]

Memory lane looms often. set of points,spark plugs, oil filter, 5 ltrs of oil....back on the road again for twenty quid!

[Cotswold Pete]

Agree with the posts here that modern cars are more trouble than they are worth.

It seems to me that problem is safety systems on cars add weight, so they try to cut weight out of the important bit like gear boxes, running gear etc etc. Also the need to have less oil in the system means we have pumps and so in places where they fail (such as BMW gear boxes).

Reminds me of my first company car (Ford Escort 3rd generation) which attempted to use less sump oil, but had a spray type system to ensure the the mechanics were bathed correctly. Gave me no end of problems with warm start problems, and glad to get rid of and get a good old fashioned Vaux Cavalier (at the time).

So what you save by having half the oil and 1mpg better consumption is more than used up by hefty repair/service bills, and it is not saving the environment because manufacture and shipping the new parts probably uses even more energy.

I will be sticking with my LS 400 for as long as I can for my every day car and even though it has had it's issues. And if I was to change it would be another Lexus or if pushed a Honda (the older ones were built like battleships - not sure about current generation)

[Spacewagon52]

The figures quoted for repairing these German lemons are eye watering. When you consider the cost of buying an LS 400 or 430 and even having to rectify suspension and cooling issues - the sums pale into insignificance compared with buying a new Merc or BMW. I have always been a Japanese fan - my Toyota Carina (1974) sold them to me. I saw that car do 100,000 miles and then I sold it to a friend whose wife learned to drive in it. It still had the original clutch after she passed her test. The rust worm got it in the end but the gearbox and engine were still as sweet as a nut. 8 Mitsubishis later and I have not been disappointed in their reliability. I ran my previous MKIII LS400 for a year with the only expense of two new tyres - and it was due a service when I bought it!

Mpg is only one factor when owning a car. Getting 50mpg out of a Skoda is great until the turbo goes and £1300 is knocked off the economy!

What do I like best about my LS 400? The quality of the engineering - once you have owned one, nothing compares in my opinion.

If it does go pear shaped - I will not have lost a fortune and will probably be able to afford to buy another. It seems a no brainer to me! Am I a little biased?

[Chris Skelton]

Agree about modern complexity. I've mentioned before about an old 2CV advert that had a list of features of other cars that the 2CV DIDN'T have; at the bottom it said "Nothing to go wrong"!!!

This echoes my situation currently. Am running a 10 year old Micra that-touch wood- just trundles on.

And the LS400 has spoiled me for anything else really, though I nearly bought a 65K mile Citroen XM this week as I love the look. But it'd still be lower quality than the LS.

Smart Forfour next i think -like the design - as I have little need of a limo now (did I ever? Just a 'treat' when I worked!)

Or, I guess I'll just hire a car when needed. (The Googlecar concept?)

[harrylime]

I also like the forfour, and funnily enough I also keep looking at Citroens, the C5. The reliability record seems patchy, but the more I read, the more I conclude it may be no worse than anything else May as well be siiting in comfortable seats as I await the AA man