Weird Idle Issue

Dean8788 · August 28, 2015

I find sometimes in drive when I come to a stop it feels like a shiver vibration when idling. Or on a very rare occasion if I have to brake harder than normal it feels like its about to stall but doesn't? Has anyone come across this before?

normski2 · August 28, 2015

I have heard of a so called shiver syndrome from other members with earlier 250's.

I think it was related to assumed carbon build up, typically in places like the injectors.

Hopefully some of the early model owners will be along soon.

Think there may have been some discussion of the merits of Terra lean as well.

IIRC some folk used a top end treatment like B44K from power enhancer. I've done mine once so far just as a precaution.

I use AR6200 at 5ml per 50 litres fuel at 1 in 3 fill ups in the hope that I am averting these issues appearing.

Dean8788 · August 28, 2015

Thanks for the swift reply, is there any harm in using these treatments on a regular basis? Also if I use say a litre to 1.5l of oil between services will cleaning this carbon cause me to consume more oil? Not sure if I explained that well at all, but maybe this carbon prevents oil loss and sometimes doing an engine flush for example does more harm than good?

normski2 · August 29, 2015

The treatments I am using are introduced via the fuel tank so they will be targeted at the top end of the ignition process.

I think you are referring to an engine flush at oil change?

Noobie, I think, does this and has had good results. I'm sure he will be along to chip in at some point.

Have a read here....may help a bit

http://www.lexusownersclub.co.uk/forum/topic/82312-anyone/page-1?hl=+engine%20+shiver

and here

http://www.lexusownersclub.co.uk/forum/topic/79916-carbon-build-up/

johnatg · August 29, 2015

I think this can be caused by carbon build up on the back of the inlet valves. Thing is, with direct injection engines the valve backs don't get washed by fuel, or by anything you introduce into the fuel.The carbon comes from combustion gases which escape from the cylinders past the valves, and by oil leaking down past the valve stem seals.

Opinions vary on whether it's mainly caused by fuel or oil - probably both. The only advice I can offer is to use the best (clean-burning) fuel (Shell V-Power) and change the oil (fully synthetic of course) every 5000 miles.

Getting rid of the carbon directly is a very expensive exercise. (It can be done by blasting the valves with ground up walnut shells).

Water injection is another possibility - various youtube videos show how to clean engine internals with water - at your own risk! (But my 24 year old MX-5 has water injection (primarily for charge cooling) and it keeps the engine internals spotless!)

normski2 · August 29, 2015

It's also worth checking the cleanliness of the mass air flow wire...but be careful with it!

Do you have a oiled panel air filter by any chance? Just a thought....as over time I've heard people say that can lead to an oily layer on the sensor wire.

John....your comments are 'spot on' in my estimation. That was what lead me to using the AR6200. It is said to provide a much cleaner and complete burn of the fuel from lowering the flashpoint temp.

johnatg · August 29, 2015

Since posting my reply above, I've been reading the current issue (Sept 2015) of 'Car Mechanics' - their resident "Diagnostics Doctor" mentions the walnut shell method as a potential remedy for an intractable problem with a Mitsubishi. Apparently it was developed because it does not need cylinder head removal - the inlet manifold is removed and that and the valves cleaned with the shell abrasive. So it may not be catastrophically expensive.

The "Diagnostics Doctor" is a Dave Peacock and I suspect he is half of Peacock and Purvey operating out of Nottingham - might be worth a call. Search with Google!

Dean8788 · August 29, 2015

Thanks for all the info its so hard to tell if this is the cause, as it can be a bit erratic. Since having my steering wheel re-trimmed I've noticed it more but at first I put it down to the Battery being disconnected and the ECU re-learning but after 200 miles its still the same. I would of thought the carbon build up would cause the symptoms to happen all the time. Now I've had three Lexus's and been so paranoid about this Ultimate/V-Power is all I used, I may give that BG224 (whatever the exact name is) a go and see if that helps, the other option was like Terra Clean but was worried if this could cause any damage?

I see so many US cars with this issue, but is there really many in the UK?

madasahatter · August 30, 2015

Normski do you get any gains from the product,best cleaner i used is cataclean. As of shelL v power dont rate the stuff myself, less mpg no real gains.

Best fuel i used and always go back to is 98 ron Bp. Best Mpg and value per buck as they say.

Dean8788 · August 30, 2015

Cheers Keith, I think i use the fuel more in the hope its cleaner and less chance of carbon build up.

madasahatter · August 30, 2015

Do you give the car the beans at all, they need a clearout now and again.

Dean8788 · August 30, 2015

I do plenty to be fair, unless the previous owner for a few years drove like miss daisy.

madasahatter · August 30, 2015

Just a thought being reading what normski uses, seems like most people have a favourite. And if it works as well then its a bonus.

I have been using cataclean for about 5 years, gives them a good clean out for about 13 pounds. I use it twice a year they advise every quarter.

normski2 · August 30, 2015

Normski do you get any gains from the product,best cleaner i used is cataclean. As of shelL v power dont rate the stuff myself, less mpg no real gains.

Best fuel i used and always go back to is 98 ron Bp. Best Mpg and value per buck as they say.

Well....to be honest I stumbled across the power enhancer gear when I had my 220d and I found their products to be very good and I kept going with them when i moved across the 250. There are plenty of testimonials on their site.

My method of use is as follows (this is for a petrol fuelled car)

1. I use a can of BG44K into a 50 ltr fill up about every 15,000/20,000 miles. To assist clearing out of any carbon gunk that can be got at this way.

2. I put 5ml of AR6200 into 50 ltrs of fuel every third fill up. I buy my fuel at Tesco...plain old unleaded. It is just cheaper ...plain and simple. But I'm doing my own additive to perk up the petrol.

The car runs beautifully and is smooth as silk. There are plenty of other products out there that no doubt do the same thing...I just happen to chosen Archoil.

Had a look at my plugs at 60,000 service and they were perfect. Almost seemed criminal to have had them replaced. But hey ho!!

Dean.........I'd have a look into cleaning the mass air flow meter as a first easy to do. Google it and you'll find loads of useful videos to follow...in fact here is one for you to watch

The device he shows is the same as the one fitted to the Lexus. The ignition is OFF when I do this. Personally, whenever I do this I unlpug the connector first and then take out the MAF unit. I wouldn't want to have a clumsy moment trying to get the connector plug off with the MAF out of the pipe. Then you just need to use a good quality electrical cleaner that leaves no residue. That is imperative....do not use anything like WD40. Then leave it dry for 10-15 mins and reassemble.

If this has not been done before....and Lexus will not have done it....they only change the air filter every 35,000 miles (bonkers)....then I'll be surprised if you don't notice a difference in the engine note and smoothness of pick up. That's because the sensor wire has become dirty. This may be your problem you are experiencing.

I did mine yesterday (got me thinking about when i last cleaned it) after some 20,000 miles and the difference was noticeable. So much so I went and did the MAF on my wife's MX5 too!!

ColinBarber · August 30, 2015

If this has not been done before....and Lexus will not have done it....they only change the air filter every 35,000 miles (bonkers)....then I'll be surprised if you don't notice a difference in the engine note and smoothness of pick up. That's because the sensor wire has become dirty. This may be your problem you are experiencing.

I did mine yesterday (got me thinking about when i last cleaned it) after some 20,000 miles and the difference was noticeable. So much so I went and did the MAF on my wife's MX5 too!!

Lexus now include cleaning the MAF sensor in the service schedule - about time really, we have been suggesting it for 10+ years on this site.

They do however only clean it as part of the 100k service. Probably should be on the 60k service really.

ColinBarber · August 30, 2015

Thanks for all the info its so hard to tell if this is the cause, as it can be a bit erratic. Since having my steering wheel re-trimmed I've noticed it more but at first I put it down to the battery being disconnected and the ECU re-learning but after 200 miles its still the same. I would of thought the carbon build up would cause the symptoms to happen all the time. Now I've had three Lexus's and been so paranoid about this Ultimate/V-Power is all I used, I may give that BG224 (whatever the exact name is) a go and see if that helps, the other option was like Terra Clean but was worried if this could cause any damage?

I see so many US cars with this issue, but is there really many in the UK?

Probably worth giving BG44k a go, in case the issue is with the injectors, however any fuel additive isn't going to help with carbon deposits on your valves - the engine is direct injection, as John previously stated, so the cleaner isn't going to touch the back of the inlet valves.

BG have a direct injection product, but it is for workshops to use together with specialist equipment - somewhat like their own Terra Clean process.

ChumpusRex · August 30, 2015

Since posting my reply above, I've been reading the current issue (Sept 2015) of 'Car Mechanics' - their resident "Diagnostics Doctor" mentions the walnut shell method as a potential remedy for an intractable problem with a Mitsubishi. Apparently it was developed because it does not need cylinder head removal - the inlet manifold is removed and that and the valves cleaned with the shell abrasive. So it may not be catastrophically expensive. The "Diagnostics Doctor" is a Dave Peacock and I suspect he is half of Peacock and Purvey operating out of Nottingham - might be worth a call. Search with Google!

I've not been able to find anyone who can do walnut blasting on a lexus. Apparently the kit needs to be matched to the engine intake ports, and while there are kits readily available for BMW and audi engines apparently, no one I've asked knows where to source a lexus one, or is willing to build one given the low demand.

Dean8788 · August 30, 2015

Does Hydrogen engine cleaning reach the intake valves?

ColinBarber · August 30, 2015

Does Hydrogen engine cleaning reach the intake valves?

Yes as that is mixed in with the air

is200 Newbie · August 31, 2015

Hi Dean.

I have had the issue you have described - feels like the car shivers and about to cut out but doesn't. I had this not long after I bought it. I had it when pulling up to a junction the first time and I wondered what the hell it was - the next time was when first starting and the couple of other times was when at a standstill. I read about the issue - at the time it was a big problem in the states and I took advice from the forum users at the time and started using the BG44 additive - added to the fuel. If I can remember right I experienced it the most back when I first got it the car and it happened a few times over the space of 6 or 7 months.

I used to use supermarket petrol - just for the cost really. To be honest my thinking was that its petrol ... petrols petrol right !!. I looked into it and found the differences between brands and the ron values.

I had no idea what fuel was used before I bought it so I used the BG44 over a few months after I experienced the shiver. Not to the recommended dosage as I added it a few times with the tank half full (or thereabouts). In all I think I have used it (over three years) about 5 times not going by any particular schedule. So - the end of 2013 the shiver had stopped. Since then I have used maybe two cans (one a year). Also, I only put it in when I know I am going to be doing short runs.

I have alternated using the V-Power 98 ron from Shell - I haven't specifically gone to use this particular brand, its just easier to fill up with this as its a local garage, I alternate this with standard 95 fuel. Every 3 fills is V-Power.

I will continue to use the BG additive (once a year) as I have had results with it (it may be different for other users). As well as this additive, I do use an engine flush at every oil change (Wynns flush, but there's loads to chose from). I change the oil every 6 months or so, only because I do a low mileage.

These steps have worked for me - since the end of 2013 I have had no more of the shivering with the car.

What I have done to resolve mine:

BG44 treatment - 1 can initially every 3 months then 1 a year

Alternate fuel usage between 95 and 98 ron

Frequent oil changes every 6 months or so

As mentioned in the thread above, keeping the oil clean can have a benefit in reducing the carbon deposits from any being burnt in the valves and in doing all you can to keep the fuel delivery clean then that's all you can do without having the head / valves stripped and cleaned. I guess with me flushing the engine on a regular basis has helped a lot with this.

I also use the K&N oiled filter and have done since I bought the car but have not had any issue with the Maff (yet) - I did use a carb cleaner on my old is200 and this did set off the engine management light but it went out after a few hours. I usually clean and re-oil the air filter every year and I do find it makes a big difference with this filter installed as compared to the dry panel one.

Its something you need to persevere with and give it a bit of time to work.

madasahatter · September 1, 2015

Well its nice to know what prevented the problem, i am with you on oil changes i do 2 a year on all cars i own. I do short journeys mainly with a good run every now and then, i must say my oil is clean as a whistle at the moment, but wont stop me changing it when the time comes.

People who say there is no need i say each to his own. As of engine flush used them but not any longer. Reason been oil will always be in the sump unless sucked out, as a lot of modern cars are done now.

But its each to there own, and what works for you that really matters. On petrol they are not all the same, some add adatives some dont, never ever put tesco morrisons etc in my cars. That is just me and not knocking those who do, like i say what works for you is all that matters.

My mate next door swears by redex, and i have used this myself an old favorite. Been around since the ark.