Brake Shudder

[SHELLDRAKE]

Just got back from a week in France, on the way home, when at times I braked hard they shuddered and the steering wheel did also, so it looks like one of the two above or both, I have checked when they were last done-front and rear discs and pads 05 Jan 2009 Mileage 120858 now mileage 163095 so they have done 42237. is it about time to buy new ones or what ???

[ambermarine]

40k is not a lot for discs that are OEM but it depends on the replacements that were fitted. Check the depth of the wear against the recommended wear .Also keep in mind that heavy braking can warp the disc and it may have been this that is causing your judder.

Make sure before you change the discs that they are the problem and not the suspension.

[Malc]

.. might just be the pads

Malc

[Cotswold Pete]

Disc do not warp, they just have areas of greater 'stiction'.

http://www.skimmydiscs.co.uk/blog/warped-brake-discs-myth/

Many other web sites that say the same thing.

Never got to the bottom of way some pads are worse at leaving a variable deposit, but had same problem in previous Lexus, though I was aware that the Front end suspension was amplifying the problem. I do know that really heavy braking followed by leaving foot on the brake can cause pad deposits to be more of an issue

So get someone who really knows the Lexus running gear to have a good poke about before making a decision.

From previous experience I have found just replacing the pads and not skimming the discs, means that the judder comes back way quicker.

Though surprised if you have OEM that you are getting problems after so few miles

[plexus914]

Mine had seized brake pads (brake dust, rust and dirt) and dark spots on discs (sandpaper for discs and pads deleted brake and steering judder). Brakes should be cleanded ideally once a year.

By the way, keep0 in mind OEM pads are ceramic ones (lesser brake dust).

[ambermarine]

I take your point Pete but the outcome is still the same and weather it is a myth or not it as through the years been a referral to disc problems .

[SHELLDRAKE]

Thanks Guys I'll have them checked, Pete the site you put forward lets you find a brake firm that can give some help, The firm by me is "Mitchel Mazda" which is also the "Lexus and Skoda" Dealership so I will pop down to see what they say, by the way what does O.E.M. mean and who other than Lexus will sell the items??

[plastic orange]

I just think that the brake shudder is intrinsic to large heavy automatic vehicles. They all seem to suffer with some more than others. In my Lexus experience it seems that judder appears after about 10,000 miles albeit lightly, resulting in replacement at 20k due to getting fed up with it. Neither original parts or aftermarket seem to be much different. I'm on pagid discs with ferodo pads just now - done about 5k and seem fine.

With regard to deposits building up on discs, I get that when holding car on brake at a stop after heavy braking, but I've tried buffing discs surfaces with no improvement. I did think about skimming discs, but difference in cost compared to buying new didn't seem worth it.

It's quite easy replacing discs, but remember to scrupulously clean the hub mating surface before fitting. I think you've done well to get 40k out of discs.

Pete

[ambermarine]

Norman

Oem stands for "original equipment manufacturer" ,that in itself is a misnomer because Toyota or Lexus do not manufacture brake parts ,they buy them from automotive brake manufacturers.

The difference is that when you buy their parts they are built or made to their specific requirements and to that end meet their criteria for that model.

You will sometimes see parts suppliers quoting, built to oem specification this might mean dimensions and such like but is very likely a cheap copy.

The nearest any aftermarket supplier gets to true oem on Lexus is Blueprint and they are about 10% off the original spec overall.

[plastic orange]

I wasn't impressed with either the blueprint discs or their very squeaky and dusty pads - wouldn't use again.

Pete

[plexus914]

For the LS there are no aftermarket ceramic pads availlable in Europe. US-Ebay or Rockauto is the way to go.

I've read good reviews on Akebono ACT665 pads.

https://www.rockauto.com/catalog/raframecatalog.php?carcode=1187513

[alien1974]

I just think that the brake shudder is intrinsic to large heavy automatic vehicles. They all seem to suffer with some more than others. In my Lexus experience it seems that judder appears after about 10,000 miles albeit lightly, resulting in replacement at 20k due to getting fed up with it. Neither original parts or aftermarket seem to be much different. I'm on pagid discs with ferodo pads just now - done about 5k and seem fine.

With regard to deposits building up on discs, I get that when holding car on brake at a stop after heavy braking, but I've tried buffing discs surfaces with no improvement. I did think about skimming discs, but difference in cost compared to buying new didn't seem worth it.

It's quite easy replacing discs, but remember to scrupulously clean the hub mating surface before fitting. I think you've done well to get 40k out of discs.

Pete

mine are coming to 20k and i have brake judder, more apparent at higher speeds, it has oe lexus discs and pads.

[Cotswold Pete]

I wasn't impressed with either the blueprint discs or their very squeaky and dusty pads - wouldn't use again.

Pete

I have blueprint on the front, and agree. They were okay for first 10,000 miles, but over last 10,000 been squeaking and had them cleaned on a regular basis, so looking at going back to Toyota pads, even though there is plenty of wear left in the blueprints.

[Titch LS]

You might like to know that most brake judder can be somewhat cured without having to resort to replacing the discs or pads. Firstly, never leave your foot on the brakes for long periods while at traffic lights, ---the reason for this is to stop the pad from 'imprinting' material onto the disc. Returning the brakes to something like normal operation can be done by employing some extremely heavy braking, (obviously on a safe stretch of road). I've tried it and it works. You have to persevere a bit. I had a bad high speed judder and by following this advice it eventually disappeared. I'm sure by doing this it somehow freed up any imbalance of pressure in the sticking 4 pot front calipers which contributed towards the juddering. Maybe the heavy braking scrubs off any sticking material on the discs as well. An inexpensive but effective fix.

[alien1974]

You might like to know that most brake judder can be somewhat cured without having to resort to replacing the discs or pads. Firstly, never leave your foot on the brakes for long periods while at traffic lights, ---the reason for this is to stop the pad from 'imprinting' material onto the disc. Returning the brakes to something like normal operation can be done by employing some extremely heavy braking, (obviously on a safe stretch of road). I've tried it and it works. You have to persevere a bit. I had a bad high speed judder and by following this advice it eventually disappeared. I'm sure by doing this it somehow freed up any imbalance of pressure in the sticking 4 pot front calipers which contributed towards the juddering. Maybe the heavy braking scrubs off any sticking material on the discs as well. An inexpensive but effective fix.

cheers for the advice, might give that a go

[plastic orange]

Repeated high speed (very) braking was my first attempt at curing shudder - didn't work, and believe me, I tried.

Pete

[SHELLDRAKE]

Thanks guys for the info--- plexus I tried rock auto, every thing seemed ok but their pads do not have the wear indicator strip that mine have so I'll give them a miss, it is going into a local garage on Tuesday, who fitted them in 2009 I'll let you know the Verdict.

[SHELLDRAKE]

Well the problem on the brakes has been sorted 2 new discs and a set of pads, discs a bit wonky, it must be caused by holding the brake pedal down when I come to a stop at lights, crossroads roundabouts etc.as the brakes/discs will still be hot, Total bill (inc) labour £272.95.Job well Done.

[Malc]

.... back to purrrrfection then :outforcount:

Malc

[SHELLDRAKE]

Yes Malc: They are working purrrrrfectly, and when braking they are as smooth as a babies"BUM" so to speak.

[Tinonline]

Good to hear.

I have a slight shimmy and looking at the discs there is little visible wear.

With an auto you are going to be on the brake at traffic lights...

I'm going to check my front wheel alignment first.

[Titch LS]

I'm in the habit of slipping back into 'N' if the lights have just turned red and I know there's going to be a longish wait. I do this especially if my brakes are hot. I don't like 'sitting' on my brakes. Got good at releasing the parking brake really quickly when time to move off.

[runsgrateasanut]

Though Roads in France are by and large great, pulling in to Service Stations and one particular Hill I recall, can result in brake juddder because it is a heavy braking area for all vehicles and the road surface suffers, progressively getting worse.

[Spottedlaurel]

Slightly delayed response here, but if the discs are generally in good order and have enough thickness then they can be skimmed. I've had this done before on a Camry where they'd rusted from standing for some time, then more recently on the front of the LS400. That was suffering shudder under braking and I was concerned it was the control arms, but happily not and I was getting nice smooth braking from speeds of well over 100mph on the track day.

The skimming operation is done with the discs still on the car, it's like a small lathe that is bolted onto the hub. Not something all garages have, but maybe worth finding one that does?

Difficult to quote an exact figure as I had other works done, but the skimming and new pads probably cost around £100-110.