Fear The Worst

[CJHYBRID]

Just been recovered to Lexus Hull.

Car ran like a dream coming over the moors from Teeside.

Stopped for a coffee and then when I started again and just accelerating away car made some unearthly noises and came to a halt. Dash showing all the nasty things Check Hybrid System Check Vsc Etc.

AA Have recovered me to Lexus Hull where car is left,Wife picking me up.

Car done 79454 and full service on 2nd June at Lexus Hull including timing belt replacement and Hybrid Check. Fear the worst any idea of the damage ????

CJ

Sent from my Iphone using Lexus OC

[steve2006]

Doesn't sound good but please keep us updated with how things progress.

[Boxbrownie]

Does not a Hybrid check include a warranty of the Hybrid system for another year?

I thought I read that somewhere here...........

[CJHYBRID]

Believe it may be but not sure about the inverter it certainly had the check.

Must say my gut feeling is its the invertor is problem.The dealer also changed the Hybrid coolant at the service.

Anyone who has experienced an invertor failure if you could tell me what happened

CJ

Sent from my Iphone using Lexus OC

[ChrisKaye]

Hi CJ,

Could it be possible that an airlock is causing this in the inverter?

It could also be a plug not reconnected correctly or loose when it was being serviced.

Please do let us know how you get on and fingers crossed it's something simple!

If you get a chance to ask, see if you can get the computer fault codes from the dealer - this would really help other Hybrid owners.

Ta,

Chris

[CJHYBRID]

Dealer now checking car.Just had it serviced a month ago and annual Hybrid Check performed. Told that it just covers the warranty but not the invertor.AA man gave codes as POA7A POA94 and POA78 which I think all relate to invertor problems.

Very worried as everything points to the invertor

CJ

[ColinBarber]

I'd question the hybrid coolant change workmanship, potentially an airlock or low levels could have contributed to this. I assume the vehicle has had the inverter recall work done in the past?

[CJHYBRID]

Hi Colin car was not in the batches that required the recall and the dealer has checked this.Interesting point regarding the coolant change as it is strange that car has performed faultlessly previously and this occurs shortly after a major service when the coolant was changed. Dealer is going to speak to Lexus. Must say one of the most concerning things was how it just stopped have not really experienced anything like it.

Chris

[ChrisKaye]

Hi CJ,

Just checked into those codes with the Techstream software.

It doesn't look good if these codes are correct and not due to a loose connection.

All these issues relate directly to the inverter components, they also are suspiciously identical to those mentioned in a recall/TSB issued in the states (and possibly here) that affected 2006 400h's. Parts of the inverter were poorly soldered and failed mainly between 90-110k miles. If the part went pop then it causes the hybrid/inverter fuse/fusible link to blow turning on the dash lights you had and immobilising the car.

This fault can be exacerbated (or a tipping point, if you like) by an inverter coolant problem or overheating due to high ambient temps and towing. Whatever dealer says and if repair is likely to be stupid expensive, I'd be looking to get a independent expert lined up to confirm dealers findings, they can spot a failed component or the root cause of this issue than the dealer saying it's popped and not under warranty/whatever.

Toyota/Lexus Hybrid specific fault codes (not exhaustive):

P0A02 Motor Electronics Coolant Temperature Sensor Circuit Low

P0A03 Motor Electronics Coolant Temperature Sensor Circuit High

P0A08 DC/DC Converter Status Circuit

P0A09 DC/DC Converter Status Circuit Low Input

P0A0D High Voltage System Inter-Lock Circuit High

P0A0F Engine Failed to Start

P0A10 DC/DC Converter Status Circuit High Input

P0A1A Generator Control Module

P0A1B Drive Motor "A" Control Module

P0A1D Hybrid Powertrain Control Module

P0A1F Battery Energy Control Module

P0A2B Drive Motor "A" Temperature Sensor Circuit Range/Performance

P0A2C Drive Motor "A" Temperature Sensor Circuit Low

P0A2D Drive Motor "A" Temperature Sensor Circuit High

P0A37 Generator Temperature Sensor Circuit Range/Performance

P0A38 Generator Temperature Sensor Circuit Low

P0A39 Generator Temperature Sensor Circuit High

P0A3F Drive Motor "A" Position Sensor Circuit

P0A40 Drive Motor "A" Position Sensor Circuit Range/Performance

P0A41 Drive Motor "A" Position Sensor Circuit Low

P0A4B Generator Position Sensor Circuit

P0A4C Generator Position Sensor Circuit Range/Performance

P0A4D Generator Position Sensor Circuit Low

P0A51 Drive Motor "A" Current Sensor Circuit

P0A60 Drive Motor "A" Phase V Current

P0A63 Drive Motor "A" Phase W Current

P0A72 Generator Phase V Current

P0A75 Generator Phase W Current

P0A78 Drive Motor "A" Inverter Performance

P0A7A Generator Inverter Performance

P0A90 Drive Motor "A" Performance

P0A92 Hybrid Generator Performance

P0A93 Inverter Cooling System Performance

P0A94 DC/DC Converter Performance

P0AA1 Hybrid Battery Positive Contractor Circuit Stuck Closed

P0AA4 Hybrid Battery Negative Contractor Circuit Stuck Closed

P0AA6 Hybrid Battery Voltage System Isolation Fault

P0AC0 Hybrid Battery Pack Current Sensor Circuit Range/Performance

P0AA7 Hybrid Battery Voltage Isolation Sensor Circuit

P0ADB Hybrid Battery Positive Contractor Control Circuit Low

P0ADC Hybrid Battery Positive Contractor Control Circuit High

P0ADF Hybrid Battery Negative Contractor Control Circuit Low

P0AE0 Hybrid Battery Negative Contractor Control Circuit High

P0AE2 Hybrid Battery Precharge Contractor Circuit Stuck Closed

P0AE6 Hybrid Battery Precharge Contractor Control Circuit Low

P0AE7 Hybrid Battery Precharge Contractor Control Circuit High

P0AEE Motor Inverter Temperature Sensor "A" Circuit Range/Performance

P0AEF Drive Motor Inverter Temperature Sensor "A" Circuit Low

P0AF0 Drive Motor Inverter Temperature Sensor "A" Circuit High

P1555 Reactor Temperature Sensor Circuit Low

P1556 Reactor Temperature Sensor Circuit High

[CJHYBRID]

Thanks think this is going to be a real problem

CJ

Sent from my Iphone using Lexus OC

[ColinBarber]

£600 to £700 seems to be the going rate on eBay for a used assembly - let's hope it doesn't come to that.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LEXUS-RX-RX400H-2008-INVERTER-ASSY-WITH-CONVERTER-3-3-HYBRID-G9201-30010-/251989229009?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item3aabba7dd1

[CJHYBRID]

Thanks Colin should have a better idea on Monday

Best regards

Chris

[ChrisKaye]

£600-700 will be a lot cheaper than Lexus no doubt at around £2-3k! Even if they give you a great discount if you have FLSH and "goodwill"!

Still, if the air-suspension is the rx300's kryptonite at £700 a corner, then the 400h inverter at £600-700 doesn't seem too bad in comparison!

What does everyone think about the inverter, is it a component like air suspension and hybrid batteries that WILL eventually fail in a "fair" way over time, or should it outlast the car like an ECU, for example?

Only reason I ask is that the Sales of Goods act good be used to argue if the component was of "reasonable" quality when purchased and can protect you for years after a purchase. Especially I would think on (albeit an old) low mileage, looked after Lex like CJs?

Chris

[ColinBarber]

There have been a couple of issues with the reliability of the inverter, one due to the quality of the power transistors and the other with the quality of the manufacture. These issues were resolved with recalls with very few actually failing. I'd imagine that improvements have also been made over time with slight manufacturing revisions.

This is a solid state device so doesn't wear in the same way as a physical device such as a suspension assembly however it is a high current device and is subject to temperature cycling so failures have to be expected.

In the US there are also inverter issues related to coolant leaks, on the 400h and the hybrid Toyota Highlander, this doesn't cause a sudden shutdown of the system but does still need a inverter replacement to resolve the issue. I'd not heard of this issue reported on these forums in the UK.

[CJHYBRID]

Chances are if the recall work had been done and my car had been included in the batches it would not have failed. Need to wait until tommorow for final prognosis. This is a long difficult weekend.Love the car but seem to have thrown an awful lot of money at it in the last couple of years.

CJ

Sent from my Iphone using Lexus OC

[ChrisKaye]

CJ,

I hear ya.

Hopefully you are not too stuck without the use of your RX for the short term whilst working out the next step.

Rest assured there will be options that present themselves, although at this stage things may seem a little bleak.

What were your intentions when you bought the RX, a stepping stone for a few years (~3 yrs) or literally own it until you are forced to change it (5+ years)? Have you bought it outright or are there payments still being made on it?

I think one of the hardest things with hybrid ownership can be the lack of decent 3rd party support/garages - surely a growth industry over the next few years or an area independents may want to explore to break some of the stranglehold dealers have over this use of technology in vehicles....

[Dr. Amdahl]

Basically there are 240 NiMh (Nickel Metal Hydride) 1.2Volt batteries in the 400h. These are connected in series to produce about 288Volts. The inverter and its associated control computers feed the power to the batteries from the two MGs (Motor Generators) one in the braking system and the other in the wheels and supply power to the drive motors to move you along, converting the voltages appropriately. Obviously due to the high current involved this generates a lot of heat which is why it has a liquid coolant.

It seems very suspicious to me that the unit was performing perfectly until a few miles after the coolant was replaced, as has already been suggested any type of anomaly such as an air lock would be my initial prognosis. I worked as a mainframe computer engineer for many years on liquid coolant chilled processors so I feel qualified to chime in.

Good luck with this, I would definitely be asking for an explanation with respect to the failure mode if it is the inverter.

[RXJasonRX]

Just wondered why your car wasn't picked up in the inverter recall that was done about a year ago I think ?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

[CJHYBRID]

Latest is that dealer suggests replacing full Invertor unit at a total cost of £4000 rather than just IPM unit which is £2700

This is quite a shock to the system. There is a discussion taking place with my non Lexus

warranty company and still awaiting news. My fear is that if invertor goes in and anything else is found it just gets worse.

It's a difficult one

CJ

[ChrisKaye]

I'll be amazed if your warranty company covers this, they all exclude Hybrid components from research I did in Jan/Feb this year.

I have my fingers and toes crossed for you though!

£4k is ridiculous they should be ashamed, especially as they were last to touch it!

[ChrisKaye]

Hi CJ,

I found a further recall on the IPM unit on the American NHTSA website (different to the first recall):

NEWS: Toyota is recalling certain model year 2006-2010 Highlander hybrid vehicles

Report Receipt Date: SEP 04, 2013

NHTSA Campaign Number: 13V396000

Component(s): HYBRID PROPULSION SYSTEM

Potential Number of Units Affected: 133,081

SEPTEMBER 2013 - Toyota is recalling certain model year 2006-2010 Highlander hybrid vehicles manufactured February 16, 2005, through July 29, 2010; and model year 2006-2008 Lexus RX400h vehicles manufactured February 23, 2005, through December 2, 2008. The Intelligent Power Module (IPM) inside the inverter module may contain transistors that have higher operating temperatures than the solder can support and the transistors may be heat damaged by the solder. If this occurs, various warning lamps, including the malfunction indicator lamp, slip indicator light, brake system warning light, and master warning light, will be illuminated on the instrument panel. The vehicle may enter a fail-safe/limp-home mode that limits the drivability of the vehicle. It is possible that the hybrid system will shut down while the vehicle is being driven, causing the vehicle to stall unexpectedly, increasing the risk of a crash. Toyota will notify owners, and dealers will replace the IPM free of charge. The recall is expected to begin in late September 2013. Vehicles that had their IPM replaced under recall 11V-342 are not affected by this campaign. Owners may also contact the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration Vehicle Safety Hotline at 1-888-327-4236 (TTY 1-800-424-9153), or go to www.safercar.gov.

Sound familiar? Might help you, might not but knowledge is power!

[Gliderpilot]

How do I find out if the recal has been done on my 400h?

[lurch]

Just phone your nearest Lexus dealer and ask to check if any outstanding recall on your car, give them your Reg number and sometimes your vin/chassis number and they will tell you.

[ColinBarber]

You should be able to check if your vehicle has any outstanding recalls using the following function on Lexus' website:

http://www.lexus.co.uk/owners/your-lexus/#/RecallInformation

[CJHYBRID]

The inverter is on order and independant warranty company has agreed to pay about a quarter of the cost. Lot of soul searching going on at the moment .Aboslutely Love the car when it is not costing me a fortune or taking control and coming to an unexpected halt.

Car has done a relatively low 79000 miles and intention was to keep it to perhaps double this mileage as I get really attached to my cars. Lexus have lent me a 2005 GS300 which is a lovely car but the reason I went for the 400h was that high Suv driving position and its ability to carry all of those suitcases to the cruise terminal the odd display cabinet or those garden cuttings to the tip.It is the easiest car to drive I have ever owned and motorway cruising is a dream. At 10 years old with most major ticket items fettled apart from the Hybrid Battery do I cut and run or keep it. Another long weekend I think. See there is an Rx400h with 208000 miles on the clock for sale near Bourne so there might be life in the old girl yet.

CJ