Buying A Lexus Ls400

mrdoofa · June 16, 2015

Hi everybody,

This is my first post on this forum so please go easy on me!!!

Tomorrow, I am going to look at and test drive an LS400,

The car is on a 1999 "T" plate, has 190,000 miles on the clock and is £1495. The dealers advert claims it is mainly motorway mileage and that the car has "Outstanding service history" although I haven't checked this yet, it has had 4 previous owners the last since 2012.

Is this a fair price for these cars? What things do I really need to check for? I know the air con isn't working at the moment, is this likely to just need regassing or something more serious? Any advice is much appreciated as I am a complete newbie to these cars, I currently own a 2002 Rover 75 CDT. Finally what sort of fuel figures can I realistically expect? Many thanks for any help!!!

Lexmanic · June 17, 2015

1st don't buy it when you first see it give yourself time to consider what it will mean should you decide to own it. Engine inspect it thoroughly check for leaks present or signs of past leaks. Its very important that not only the cam belt has been changed but also the water pump (it save on the cost of labour) Take it for a drive & find the road with a good few potholes & listen for bangs rattles etc (if there are any it means bushes and joints, track arms may need replacing) You must also take on an unrestricted 70mph road & then gun it. Even a 99 400 Lexus the engine & gearbox should be faultless. It should waft you along as if on air Also check that ALL of the brake calipers to ensure none are sticking (a common fault but easy to rectify) AND before you commit to buy come back here for further advice

Almost forgot find out which tyers have been fitted The wrong ones can make for lousy handling + excessive road noise

mrdoofa · June 17, 2015

Thank you very much for your help!!! The dealer is being very reasonable so far, he has already said I can take it for a good test drive to be sure I like it and he also lets you take cars out unattended so I can thoroughly check everything without him looking over my shoulder.

There is no shortage of potholes etc where I live and there is a bypass where I can stretch its legs a bit. My biggest concern is the air con at the moment, is there any way to check whether it just needs a regas or something more? It seems almost too good to be true that such a big comfy powerful car can be had for this money, I also contacted my insurer for a quote and that is much better than I expected also.

willydoit · June 17, 2015

Hi Martin,

You need to remember that 190,000 miles of wear has occurred on every part of the car so a lot depends on what you are expecting from other elements such as interior trim etc. I myself am a bit anal when it comes to looking after my cars, we have a 2006 sc430 with 41k and a 98 mk4 LS400 with 55k and both drive like new cars. We have just bought the 430 but at the moment it isnt in as good condition as the LS400 which we have had for 10 years and were lucky enough to buy at 7.5k. I notice that you are in Yorkshire as are we, (nr Driffield) you are more than welcome to take a look at ours to give you something to use as a comparison.

I personally think mileage is important on many levels and decided against a 430 from a Lexus dealership with 12 months warranty as it had 90k on the clock and opted instead for a private purchase with no warranty or comeback but with 41k and I think I made the right decision. The 400 had only 7.5k when I bought it and hasnt cost me anything beyond service items in 10 years.

As you will read on these forums the engines if maintained are pretty much bulletproof, but I would be shocked to say the least if even aLS400 wasnt queueing up repair bills for suspension and steering items at almost 200k miles. The aircon if it wasnt working is a huge worry and could cost as much as the car is worth to fix if it isnt just a gassing issue although second hand parts are often available.

Big question to me would be, if its only a 30 quid re- gas why hasnt the dealer done it before sale rather than have it raise questions over repairs in your mind from the outset.

As mentioned by Lexmatic, the car will be due a cambelt change within 10k and if done at Lexus I would guess you could be looking at around £600 even if they dont find anything else that needs doing once they have it in their hands. The upcoming cambelt change could well be the reason someone has moved it on.

I would check the history carefully, It could be, but I doubt if it will be full Lexus on a car of that age and mileage as at that stage it becomes an issue of cost effectiveness and even a full lexus history is going to do little to preserve value on a car of that age and mileage.

Price seems expensive to me ( but I am no expert) for something with known issues. I am sure you will find cared for examples within your budget, remember there are lots of cars for sale out there that you can buy but the dealer wants to get rid of his so that puts you in a strong position.

I hate to sound so negative but you can easily fall for a LS400 due to its comfort quality and power so you wont need anyones help in deciding to buy it so people will in my opinion be doing you more of a favour by playing devils advocate just to provide that much needed pause for thought.

Not sure if you will be able to reply to a private message due to number of posts but I will send you my contact details in case you are close by and would like to see what a well cared for LS 400 should look and drive like to provide comparisons.

Hope this helps, just dont let your heart rule your head and you should never regret buying a Lexus LS400.

Malc · June 17, 2015

..... can you give us a web link to it on the dealer's forecourt, that might help in our thoughts !

Malc

The-Acre · June 17, 2015

As air con is cheap to re-gas, I would be thinking something a bit more serious could wrong.

cruisermark · June 17, 2015

If your looking to buy a Mark 4 here’s what to look out for:

Make sure it has a full or at least a good service history which includes the cambelt change.

On driving the ride should be quite smooth comfortable with no
noises or creaks from the suspension. Gearbox changes should not be
noticeable

Upon inserting key the steering should tilt and retract - test and make sure the mechanism works

When starting from cold the starter should engage and start the
engine immediately - if there is clicking sound then be prepared to
have the starter or starter contacts replaced - the is a big job - takes
about 7 hours therefore costs a lot and finding a competent mechanic
who has the knowledge to properly dismantle and reassemble everything
may not be as easy as you think..

Braking should be quite and smooth - if you get a groaning
noise when coming to stop that’s a sign of cheap aftermarket brake pads -
they will need replacing.

Check colour of gearbox oil it should be red with no smell of burning.

Check all electrics work

Check the temperature display backlight works - these fail and require a lot of dismantling to replace.

Check the bonnet struts hold the bonnet

Check there is no water or dampness in the spare wheel well - if yes then boot seal needs replacing or sealing

Check the car has the correct Toyota red coolant

Ask if the cabin filter has ever been changed - these are often over looked.

Check toolkit is present

Check for exhaust blow - the Y pipe is prone to leaking

Make sure there are no warning lights lit in the dash

Ideally you want 2 remote and one grey key

Check the car has a matching set of tyres and wether they are
branded or not - this should give an indication wether the car has been
pampered or neglected

Check the headlamp levelling mechanism still works - these often fail

Before driving off make sure you have the say nav code and locking wheel nut key

cruisermark · June 17, 2015

..... can you give us a web link to it on the dealer's forecourt, that might help in our thoughts !

Malc

its probably this one

http://www.lcccarsales.co.uk/used-cars/lexus-ls-400-4-0-4dr-shipley-201505293867629

cruisermark · June 17, 2015

you could use this example as a bargaining tool

http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/lexus/ls/lexus-ls-400-4-0-4dr/4271688

Malc · June 17, 2015

........... I'd be happy to pay for both if they look in real as good as advertised. The money asked is quite small for such wonderful late Ls400s notwithstanding you might have to pay for some servicing and wear and tear costs additionally .......... surely £2000 all-up for a late Ls400 is going to be money well spent if you're a " holder " of the best car ever.

Malc

Lexmanic · June 17, 2015

I would suggest making regassing by the seller to be a part of the sale. Make it a deal breaker & see how they react. If they refuse walk away as there's more to it than just regassing

Bluesman · June 17, 2015

Hi Martin, What is rare is a car in such good condition as this one is meant to be, rarely do they match up to the car advertised and often make you wonder if its a different car you are now looking at.

These cars even with just a wash and dry can make the car look as though its almost new but then when you start looking underneath the shiny bits there are real problems.

For a Mk4 with that sort of mileage I wouldn't want to pay more than £1k.

Good luck with it. Mike.

willydoit · June 17, 2015

I would suggest making regassing by the seller to be a part of the sale. Make it a deal breaker & see how they react. If they refuse walk away as there's more to it than just regassing

Bear in mind that if there is a small leak somewhere or seals have gone that it may take time for the gasses to leech from the system therefore it is essential that the deal breaker is that the dealer puts the aircon in proper working order as opposed to just has to gas it ad that he includes it within the statutory 3 months warranty.

willydoit · June 17, 2015

Hi Martin, What is rare is a car in such good condition as this one is meant to be, rarely do they match up to the car advertised and often make you wonder if its a different car you are now looking at.

These cars even with just a wash and dry can make the car look as though its almost new but then when you start looking underneath the shiny bits there are real problems.

For a Mk4 with that sort of mileage I wouldn't want to pay more than £1k.

Good luck with it. Mike.

Couldn't agree more, the bulletproof reputation these cars have can easily lead one into a false sense of security, 200k miles is a lot of wear and tear on any car and when the bills do start to roll in on these they can be costly. I would also add that there are few worse places than west yorkshire to end up being stung with a bad car, with all due respect to the good honest dealers around, but dealers are aware that Trading Standards have so many complaints about dodgy motors in that area they simply cannot cope which allows dodgy dealers to have a field day with little chance of being taken to task by Trading Standards so it really is a case of buyer beware.

Malc · June 17, 2015

.. ok, so by now you will have had your test drive ....... how did it go ??

Malc

mrdoofa · June 17, 2015

I've been to see the car and these are my findings,

The engine seems ok, very quiet and smooth, pulls very well, oil colour yellowish, slightly brown.

Transmission fluid seems ok and gear changes are very smooth and changes when it should.

Suspension quiet, couldn't hear any noises that would cause any concern.

No warning lights on dash, engine temp settled just under halfway on the gauge which I believe is normal.

Cam belt changed at 119k according to label under bonnet

Electric windows/mirrors/seats etc, even electric aerial all fine!!! Stereo etc all fine, it was too daylight to check illumination of climate LCDs but temp displays etc are fine, the speedo/ rev counter/ fuel/temp gauges and needles all fine

Bad bits...

Obviously air con not working

Damp under spare wheel, it's actually carpeted under there which makes it seem worse than it probably is.

Steering wheel only moves for rake but not reach but luckily in a comfortable position for me lol!!! Moves up and down fine with ignition though.

Bonnets struts won't hold bonnet up

The bodywork has a few scratches and scuffs but only what you'd expect for the age and mileage.

The tyres aren't all the same brand but all reputable brands (Good year and Michelin).

It stops in a straight line with no noise from the brakes, steering felt fine too.

I loved driving the car though, so comfy with effortless power, I didn't realise that it had heated rear seats as well as the front (they all work.) I reset the fuel computer and after a roughly 15 mile drive in mixed conditions but more in slow moving traffic and it said I averaged 24mpg which impressed me.

The thing is, I certainly aren't expecting perfection on a car of this age and mileage. Things like replacing the boot seal and bonnet struts seem quite easy and cheap to do.

Time was getting on by this point so I'm going back again tomorrow to inspect the paperwork, it also has a 12 month MOT.

willydoit · June 17, 2015

Hi,

Playing devils advocate again, the cambelt was changed way too late at 120,000 miles, should have been 100,000. Not necessarily an issue but indicative of how the car was maintained, will bet next months wages that servicing at that time was not by Lexus as anyone willing to pay Lexus prices would not skimp on leaving cambelt change. I suspect that documentation will show an ownership change around the 90-100k miles. If car was sold by a garage at that time they probably arranged the cambelt change to be able to sell the car.

Bills would be something that would be handy to see to check what has been done ove rhte years. The boot seals and struts as you say should be an inexpensive fix. The cambelt and aircon are unlikely to be, you could end up investing 50% of your purchase price again on cambelt alone so be prepared for that.

I would suspect that for the money you are budgeting there will be better examples available. The problem is that an LS400 even after 200,000 miles is still a better car than most anything else on the road within equivalent price bracket and if you havent experienced them before for comparison it is easy to be overwhelmed by the spec, quality and comfort and therefore overlook the negatives.

For what you are paying they are one hell of a car and if you are happy to risk the potential bills associated with a high mileage car then you are unlikely to find a better car for your money so long as you get a good one.

Gut feeling on this one is I would be walking away with the aircon and cambelt issues alone but thats just me. As mentioned before I dont like high mileage cars whatever the make but I like to keep my cars as close to showroom as possible and that just isnt possible when someone else has done 200,000 miles in it so I am probably more sceptical, picky and paranoid than most. Perhaps someone with a 400 with equivalent miles could give you a better insight as my 98 mk 4 has only done 55k.

To reiterate, the 400 is an easy car to fall in love with just dont let your heart rule your head, £1600 isnt a lot of money for a car but if it's all you have got then its a lot to lose and if for whatever reason you have to try to sell it on needing a cambelt and with no working aircon no-one is going to give you anything like the amount you are being asked to pay for this one.

With that mileage and the issues you are already aware of I would say its maybe worth 50% of the current asking price on a good day.

Have a shop around to see what other examples are available there are good ones out there and the right one is worth waiting for.

Just so you know, there is probably no-one worse than me for being "I want one and I want it now" so understand the temptations but I have always ended up regreting those hasty decisions and literaly lost tnousands as a result so now tend to over compensate.

Whatever you decide to do I hope you get sorted and enjoy what is still one of the best cars ever produced.

Malc · June 18, 2015

....... check the servicing records and make sure the cambelt actually has been changed from a reputable invoice rather than just the sticker on the engine ........... the steering rake etc, well, if it suits you then i wouldn't find that too much of an issue . the aircon, well, maybe worry about that when you have more time and effort, it might be inexpensive or not.

You probably won't get a better car than a Ls400, just anticipate normal tlc needs over the years ahead ......

I would negotiate a price and just buy it, you're quite comfortable with this car and it might be a while before you find anything comparable for the money

Malc

Bluesman · June 18, 2015

Stickers under the bonnet are two a penny its an invoice that can be checked you want to see.

As I said in an earlier post still stands "No car is as good as the adverts make out they are"

I would walk from this one. Mike.

bigjap · June 18, 2015

originally on this model the cambelt was to be changed at 65k,so may be the 2nd one

willydoit · June 18, 2015

originally on this model the cambelt was to be changed at 65k,so may be the 2nd one

Apologies, I was getting the cambelt change confused with the 430 engine which is 100k on my sc430, my 400 had belts changed a 6,000 and 40,000. It would be suprising if someone had the belt changed so far in advance unless they had just purchased it and suspected it hasnt yet been done. Would have thought they would have left the original sticker on for the first belt change as well, mine has both stickers.

I suppose it's all guesswork in the end and buying any car is a gamble you just have to go with your gut and instinct and dont let your heart overide them.

mrdoofa · June 20, 2015

Thank you everybody for your help and input.

I think you are right, there is a bit too much wrong with this particular example, I rang the dealer yesterday to arrange to give the car another once over armed with more knowledge and to inspect the paperwork, he advised me that the car had developed a knocking noise and had it booked in to a garage on Monday and told me to ring back on Tuesday for an update, I asked him for some history details over the phone and he went very cagey and just said we've got a few bits and pieces to go with it.

I am beginning to think that the "outstanding service history" which was advertised isn't that outstanding at all!!! In fact it seems almost nonexistent!!! so my gut instinct is now telling me this is a wrong un.

Anyway, I wondered what your thoughts are on a 2001 GS430 which I've spotted for sale near by. Here is the weblink to it:

http://www.aandcautos.co.uk/used/lexus/gs/43-se-4dr-auto-sat-nav/bradford/west-yorkshire/16095637

I'm going to view it tomorrow afternoon, does anybody know what I should check for on these? I know this is really the wrong forum for this model but any help once again would be appreciated.

willydoit · June 20, 2015

Same things apply really, cambelt and service history, not familiar with this model so cannot be much help, I doubt they have had it long as car shows as taxed until march16 and test feb 16. I think with a car in this budget range you are always going to have to be careful as there is greater chance of wear and tear repair bills. There will be good ones out there you just have to be diligant. Might be worth checking the gs forum for any known issues with this model. Without wishing to sound nosey, Is 2k at the top of your budget? Lexus is a car people tend to hang on to so it may be worth stretching the budget as much as you can to widen the posibilities and increase the chances of a good example if you are likely to keep the car some time With a lower budget you may find a better deal looking at private sales and cut out the dealers margins which are likely to be quite high on these types of cars to cover any issues that occur in the first three months of any warranty.

Good luck

Lexmanic · June 20, 2015

I'm also concerned about the engine oil as what you describe has all the hallmarks of a failed cylinder head. AND now that there's a knocking sound admitted by the seller I'm even more convinced about the head gasket.

Knocking sounds on any engine neary always spell trouble & cost lots of money to rectify My advice walk away there'll be others

mrdoofa · June 20, 2015

Got back from viewing the GS430, the only word to describe it is stunning.

The car literally looked and felt like new, absolutely everything is in full working order,

The air con was icy cold with no smells, all electrics are spot on. Whilst it was strange to have the heated seats on with the air con they got nice and warm, steering wheel works fine both rake and reach. The boot doesn't like like it's been used, everything spotless and crucially bone dry!!!

Cambelt done at 104k, auxiliary belt done too. Every old MOT present, a folder full of invoices and bills. It's obvious the previous owners haven't scrimped with the maintenance. Full book pack and 2 keys.

The car drives like new, everything feels as tight as a trampoline.

I'm going to leave a post on the GS forum to see what they say. I told the dealer I'm going to think about it overnight and let him know tomorrow if I'm having it.