Is This Normal?

valanade · June 8, 2015

A couple of questions from a new owner:

1) On selecting Drive the engine always cuts in even if the traction Battery is showing a high level of charge (75% and greater)?

2) The traction Battery appears to loose its charge whilst the car is off and locked ie overnight. Is this because it is powering the security systems? If so has anyone experienced a flat Battery yet after leaving the car for a longer period ie while away on holiday?

Richard1200 · June 8, 2015

Point No 1, I do not think that is normal. I have lived with the IS hybrid for 2 years almost and mine often gets all the way out of car parks etc on Battery which still makes some people jump as its so quiet. When it's very cold my engine cuts in after I have reversed off my drive.

Point No 2, cannot say I have noticed any discharge during the night.

You have to have a very light right foot to keep it on Battery, have you tried ECo mode?

You need a hybrid health check done by your dealer I think, although I think it's safe to say that you would be one of the first on this site to have a Battery problem.

I am sure someone with more knowledge will be along soon.

wh05apk · June 8, 2015

I have only had mine for 2 weeks, but have done about 1200 miles, mine does not start when put into D, but quite often will start whilst sat stationary, even after a long run when everything is warm, and presumably fully charged.

I also notice that the Battery seems quite a bit lower after standing overnight, may just be my imagination, as I probably run on electric for 1/4 mile up my road before manoeuvring into my drive, so probably run it don, but don't notice?

ColinBarber · June 8, 2015

1 - do you mean when cold? That is normal. If the engine it hot then it won't necessarily start, that would depend on the hybrid Battery charge.

2 - you may see one bar drop, there will always be a bit of self-discharge to the batteries. No the hybrid Battery isn't powering the vehicle when it is switched off, that is the job of the 12v aux Battery.

You should never get a flat hybrid Battery unless leaving the vehicle for 6+ months. After a few weeks the aux Battery could be flat.

Steve44 · June 8, 2015

Mine virtually always runs the engine for at least a short time even if the engine is warm, when started. This is even with a virtually full Battery. I've always thought this was normal behaviour but not what I would expect it to do.

What model IS have you and how old is it?

valanade · June 9, 2015

I will check and see if the engine starts when both hot and cold. Why is it necessary for it to start if cols with the traction Battery showing a decent level of charge?

To answer Steve44, My car is a 2014 IS 300h F Sport

ganzoom · June 9, 2015

I will check and see if the engine starts when both hot and cold. Why is it necessary for it to start if cols with the traction battery showing a decent level of charge?

To answer Steve44, My car is a 2014 IS 300h F Sport

Because the Lexus/Toyota setup ISN'T designed to be a true electric vehicle(EV) hybrid set-up. It's essentially a normal petrol car, hence the engine is on most of the time. The EV element of the IS300H is designed to recapture energy lost in braking, and than use that energy to provide 'limited' EV power to help supplement the main engine or provide very limited electric only running. The EV Battery on the IS300H is only 1.9 kWh, and only 1.5 kWh is usable, this is a tiny Battery compared to a even a Mitsubishi PHEV, which has a 12 kWh Battery.

Essentially there are now several 'grades' of EV/Hybrid cars, though they are all called hybrids its confusion.

1: Toyota/Lexus/Infiniti hybrid drive units = These really are just ICE (internal combustion engine) units, where the 'hybrid' bit is only really to recapture lost brake energy, allow the ICE unit to run very efficently, and provide very 'limited' electric vehicle (EV) running, about 5 miles. Because of the small Battery (<2 kWh) they don't need to be 'plugged in'. The Battery in the Lexus is small enough to sit under the boot area without impacting on storage space.

2: Plug-In hybrids (Golf GTE/A3 Etron/ Mitsubishi PHEV / BMW i8) = These cars have a proper ICE unit, and a decent Battery size (6-12 kWh). As an result they can work as a pure electric car for 20-30 miles, before electricity runs out and they need switch to ICE power. Because of the much larger Battery they need 'plugging in' to fully charge the Battery. However because they have to carry both a fully functioning ICE unit and large Battery these things are heavy. These larger batteries need to be integrated into the drivetrain better to stop the boot space from been swallowed up. Both the GTE/A3 have tiny boots because the Battery packs weren't designed to be integrated it the drive train unlike the Mitsubishi PHEV.

3: EV cars with ICE units as 'range extenders' ( i3, Ampera) = These are 'proper' EVs. They are purely powered by an electric motor, and have large batteries (16-24 kWh). However because people worry about 'range anxiety' these cars also come with a SMALL ICE electric generator. The ICE provides no motion (unlike PHEVs), and only serve to provide Battery re-charging 'on-the-go'. Like all EVs you need to plug these things in, and the batteries are getting very big now.

4: Proper Battery EVs (Leaf/Zoe/Tesla) = These are pure Battery powered, with no way of generating electricity on board. If you run out of charge, your stuck. Hence they have big batteries (up to 85kWh), but because they have no ICE drivetrain at all, some weight is saved. These things are basically Battery packs with motors and wheels stuck on....Just like Tandy remote control cars I built as a kid, but sadly about x100 more expensive .

So to answer your question....There is nothing wrong with your Lexus, its performing as it was designed (Our 2015 IS300H does exactly as you describe). If your after a 'proper' EV driving experience you have to look else where :)

DJP · June 9, 2015

Terrific post Gang, I'm sure many will find this extremely interesting and useful. Are you still on track for the Tesla?

valanade · June 9, 2015

Thank You Gang,

a very informative post which answers my questions well.

We are very happy with the EV experience offered by the IS and are slowly getting to grips with the slight change in driving style required to get the best from the system. Although my wife is getting better figures than me because I still like a little 'blast' every now and then as I used to do in my GT86.

Thanks again

PS The son of a friend of mine has just been head hunted by Tesla from Aston Martin to be their head of interior design in San Francisco, so hopefully you will be driving one of his designs in the near future

ganzoom · June 9, 2015

Terrific post Gang, I'm sure many will find this extremely interesting and useful. Are you still on track for the Tesla?

Actually sitting here staring at my bank account wondering how on earth I managed to spend so much each month on my old BMW 335i, now that it's gone I think I'll be able to fill my ISA allowance for the first time in years...I think it was all the money I wasted on modifications, and than servicing and than repairs costs, oh and finally fuel :D

But yes, the Tesla (or similar) is a certainty once the Leaf PCP deal is done, just need to decided if I should really go saving crazy and try to bridge the extra £20K needed for the mental 691 BHP P85D. Plan is to put the order in for around my 35th birthday, don't think I've ever wanted to get older so fast

....the other option to get into one quicker is to persuade the wife to let the Lexus go. Yes I know we'll loss a shed load on depreciation, I'm willing to pay that difference to have the future now, but luckily my wife is far too sensible with money to let me do anything that crazy.

ColinBarber · June 9, 2015

I will check and see if the engine starts when both hot and cold. Why is it necessary for it to start if cols with the traction battery showing a decent level of charge?

The engine and transmission need to get up to working temperature. If you have the climate system on and it needs heat to get the cabin to the correct temperature then it will also need to run the petrol engine to get that heat.

If you don't want the engine to start, if for example you just want to move the vehicle off the driveway, then press the EV button once the vehicle is 'Ready' before the engine automatically starts. You have to be very gentle though, when cold anything more than just touching against the throttle will bring up the 'excess acceleration' message and the engine will start.

Steve44 · June 10, 2015

On mine, even if the engine is hot/battery good, if I press EV button when I start up it will invariably beep and say some message about Ev mode not available and the engine will cut in for at least 30 secs. To be fair I very rarely use the ev button, I find I can get better ev travel using eco mode and a gentle throttle application.

ganzoom · June 10, 2015

So Tesla have a Battery swapping technology enables you to get an extra 300 miles of range in 90 seconds, so actually quicker to 're-fuel' an EV than an ICE car. Tesla has been piloting a swap station in Los Angeles, Tesla gave some details on how the pilot project is going...

200 invitations sent to local owners, 5 people actually used it, and none used it more than once....Essentially actual EV owners find free supercharging that can deliver close to 200 miles of range in 30 minutes is more than adequate, and most simply don't need/or use Battery swapping even when it only takes 90 seconds. It was also confirmed again the Tesla superchargers will be FREE FOREVER, and sustainable.

Tesla CEO Elon Musk Talks Autopilot Progress, Model X Delivery, Negativity On Battery-Swap - Forbes

More interesting is the comment Musk made about the up and coming electric SUV, the model X...He essentially said.

'The Model X may arguably be a better SUV than the Model S is a sedan.'

Given how good the Model S is, that's a bold statement, and something his repeated several times now...No confirmation on price yet, but likely to be 10% more expensive than the Model S, so starts at around £60K, so Range Rover Sport territory. I have to say I've NEVER had any interest in SUVs before, but this thing is starting to temp me, there is already a 20,000+ waiting list, pre-ordering a RHD version now wouldn't see delivery for another 18 months....Just about the time when my Leaf PCP deal is due to finish...Humm, might be another thread about the GS vs the model X soon :p